15 replies to this topic

[GT123]

on pg.271 question #7You have A:club: 4:club: on the button. Three players limp, and you limp. The small blind raises, and the big blind and everyone else call (12 small bets). The flop is K:diamond:5:club:2:heart:, giving you a gutshot, an overcard, and a backdoor flush draw. The small blind bets. The big blind calls, and the first limper raises. The next two limpers fold(16 small bets). What should you do?The answer was to reraise. I found this to be a super aggressive play..and I would not do it if the situation came up. Any of you SSHE readers play this aggressive? Would playing this aggressive increase ones winrate.I would like to hear everyones opinion on this hand and why they agree or disagree with the play. Thanks 8)

[holman3rd]

GT123 said:

on pg.271 question #7You have A:club: 4:club: on the button. Three players limp, and you limp. The small blind raises, and the big blind and everyone else call (12 small bets). The flop is K:diamond:5:club:2:heart:, giving you a gutshot, an overcard, and a backdoor flush draw. The small blind bets. The big blind calls, and the first limper raises. The next two limpers fold(16 small bets). What should you do?The answer was to reraise. I found this to be a super aggressive play..and I would not do it if the situation came up. Any of you SSHE readers play this aggressive? Would playing this aggressive increase ones winrate.I would like to hear everyones opinion on this hand and why they agree or disagree with the play. Thanks 8)

I have this book, but not with me (at work), so I haven't gone back and read their explanation. With this many players, a lead bet by the SB and a raise by the BB indicates strength, and I'm likely way behind here. I'm probably looking at only 3 outs (for the gutshot) to win this pot. Even if an ace falls on the turn, I'm still likely behind to two pair (many play any ace) or even a set that was made on the flop. I fold. As for the backdoor straight, I have less than a 5% chance of hitting that (i think).

[BetItAll33]

raising here is tough to justify, but I'll give it a shot. By raising, you force the preflop raiser to call 2 bets cold. If he has a hand like JJ, or AQ this will be tough for him to do. This has the potential to clean up some of your outs. (2 aces)Since the BB merely called the flop bet, you might force him off his hand as well, further improving your chance of winning. With 3 gutshot outs to the nuts, about 1 out for your backdoor flush, and about 2 outs for your over card, you've given yourself odds to see the river here. BTW - I fold.

[KramitDaToad]

I think it is very aggressive, however it has been setup with everything absolutly perfect.The pot is very big, your opponents are dwindling, your position is perfect, you have some strong outs and the support of some weak ones.I think the reraise is for a number of reasonsIt's at least a call anyway with the gutshot needing 11-1, the pot offering 8-1 and implied odds bringing it home.So for the cost of 1 extra bet you may acheive1) pressure on the blinds to fold so as to go heads up with the raiser. The hope here is if this happens it is more likely that your ace is a valid out.2) the free card. Even if everybody calls it is likely that it will get checked around on the turn and you can check to see the river for free if you wish3) shutting down a reraise. Even with AK the SB will reconsider capping in the face of a raise and a reraise on that board. Everyone will be assuming you have a set of 5's or 2's. What could conceivably happen here if you call is the SB reraises, the first limper caps and your faced with another 2 bets.4) a reputation for being a complete nutter. This 'looks' like a silly raise as all the reasons for doing it are subtle. Good players may recognise this and give you respect. Bad players will think you're a fruit cake and give you action...All that said, I think you'd have to be on your 'A' game to spot all this on the fly.After thinking it through, I like it!

[holman3rd]

KramitDaToad said:

It's at least a call anyway with the gutshot needing 11-1, the pot offering 8-1 and implied odds bringing it home.

I voted fold b/c the pot odds do not justify chasing the gutshot. You have to catch this on the turn for the implied odds to matter...the odds are even worse if you miss and have to try to catch on the river.Still, interesting that you recommend a call due to implied odds. Please elaborate.Maybe I'm looking at this wrong.Thanks.

[GT123]

holman3rd said:

I have this book, but not with me (at work), so I haven't gone back and read their explanation. With this many players, a lead bet by the SB and a raise by the BB indicates strength, and I'm likely way behind here. I'm probably looking at only 3 outs (for the gutshot) to win this pot. Even if an ace falls on the turn, I'm still likely behind to two pair (many play any ace) or even a set that was made on the flop. I fold.  As for the backdoor straight, I have less than a 5% chance of hitting that (i think).

if you just call in this hand..the small blind and the big blind will call also..so your getting around 9 to 1 on the call...you have 4 outs for the gutshot, one out for the backdoor flush, and half a out for the ace because its a weak out. So 5.5 outs so calling is right. But raising doesnt seem like the right play. The book says that the raise is to make hand like AJ or AQ fold..and for the free card. But if you raise and the sb and BB both fold, you will be paying 3 for 17 if the post-flop raiser just calls, which is 6 to 1 on a 9 to 1 shot.Wouldnt that mean your losing money by doing this in the long run.

[holman3rd]

GT123 said:

holman3rd said:

I have this book, but not with me (at work), so I haven't gone back and read their explanation. With this many players, a lead bet by the SB and a raise by the BB indicates strength, and I'm likely way behind here. I'm probably looking at only 3 outs (for the gutshot) to win this pot. Even if an ace falls on the turn, I'm still likely behind to two pair (many play any ace) or even a set that was made on the flop. I fold.  As for the backdoor straight, I have less than a 5% chance of hitting that (i think).

if you just call in this hand..the small blind and the big blind will call also..so your getting around 9 to 1 on the call...you have 4 outs for the gutshot, one out for the backdoor flush, and half a out for the ace because its a weak out. So 5.5 outs so calling is right. But raising doesnt seem like the right play. The book says that the raise is to make hand like AJ or AQ fold..and for the free card. But if you raise and the sb and BB both fold, you will be paying 3 for 17 if the post-flop raiser just calls, which is 6 to 1 on a 9 to 1 shot.Wouldnt that mean your losing money by doing this in the long run.

BTW...in the last sentence, i meant backdoor "flush" not "straight"

[GT123]

im such a slow typer..when i was typing the response ... there were already 3 new replies..

[KramitDaToad]

holman3rd said:

KramitDaToad said:

It's at least a call anyway with the gutshot needing 11-1, the pot offering 8-1 and implied odds bringing it home.

I voted fold b/c the pot odds do not justify chasing the gutshot. You have to catch this on the turn for the implied odds to matter...the odds are even worse if you miss and have to try to catch on the river.Still, interesting that you recommend a call due to implied odds. Please elaborate.Maybe I'm looking at this wrong.Thanks.

I figure the blinds will call making it 9-1 and if you hit it on the turn I think getting the 2 bets will be easy. You should be led into by the raiser and a raise here will get at least his call to make the 2 or a flat call may get at least 1 of the blinds coming along to make up the difference.After that any betting on the river makes your flop call +EV.Also as each bet is to be taken in isolation, if you miss the turn you are likely to be facing a bet 0f 11-1 (the 8 from the flop round + 1 for your call + 1 for the blind's calls + 1 for the likely bet from the raiser) making a call on the turn correct too.

[KramitDaToad]

GT123 said:

But if you raise and the sb and BB both fold, you will be paying 3 for 17 if the post-flop raiser just calls, which is 6 to 1 on a 9 to 1 shot.Wouldnt that mean your losing money by doing this in the long run.

I think the logic here is that the raiser is protecting a K so by removing the blinds it makes your Ace a stronger out, moving your outs from say 5.5 to maybe as high as 8.8 outs is about 5-1 so it is possible if all the above is true.I think some broad assumptions are being made. As the raiser is probably in a EP it is unlikley they have 2 pair, they would have raised AK or KK preflop and again are unlikely to have pocket 5's or 2's.The most likely holding for the raiser is KQOf course it would be brilliant if the raiser is making a similar play with A3

[GT123]

lets say...scenerio 1: It gets capped..you'll be get 6 to 1 on your call and no free card and dont clean any of your outs=BADscenerio 2:sb ,bb and pre-flop raiser calls..your getting 7 to 1 and get a free card.= not bad not great.scenerio 3: sb and bb fold you clean your outs get 8 to 1 on your call and have the option of a free card= Greatthese are the likely things that will happen if you reraisebut if you call instead of reraise.scenerio 1 will remain the same..scenerio 2 you'll be getting the right odds but no free card. scenerio 3 wont happen at all.i think the decision between calling and reraising are pretty close.I would normally just call, but reraising doesnt seem that bad now after thinking the hand through.

[holman3rd]

GT123 said:

lets say...scenerio 1: It gets capped..you'll be get 6 to 1 on your call and no free card and dont clean any of your outs=BADscenerio 2:sb ,bb and pre-flop raiser calls..your getting 7 to 1 and get a free card.= not bad not great.scenerio 3: sb and bb fold you clean your outs get 8 to 1 on your call and have the option of a free card= Greatthese are the likely things that will happen if you reraisebut if you call instead of reraise.scenerio 1 will remain the same..scenerio 2 you'll be getting the right odds but no free card. scenerio 3 wont happen at all.i think the decision between calling and reraising are pretty close.I would normally just call, but reraising doesnt seem that bad now after thinking the hand through.

As Kramit implied, this can be very hard to reason through on the fly, particularly during the 20 seconds you are given online to make a decision. I would probably still fold given straight pot odds, and the fact that I don't think that deeply in low-limit hold 'em. Perhaps I should.

[GT123]

holman3rd said:

As Kramit implied, this can be very hard to reason through on the fly, particularly during the 20 seconds you are given online to make a decision. I would probably still fold given straight pot odds, and the fact that I don't think that deeply in low-limit hold 'em. Perhaps I should.

yea..of course this wont be going through my head if i had to make a decision at a table...especially when multi tabling. But with experience..i think one would recognise the situation with little thought. But why fold..you are still getting the right odds to call if you count the hidden outs. 5.5/47. and the implied odds will make up for it also.

[holman3rd]

GT123 said:

holman3rd said:

As Kramit implied, this can be very hard to reason through on the fly, particularly during the 20 seconds you are given online to make a decision. I would probably still fold given straight pot odds, and the fact that I don't think that deeply in low-limit hold 'em. Perhaps I should.

yea..of course this wont be going through my head if i had to make a decision at a table...especially when multi tabling. But with experience..i think one would recognise the situation with little thought. But why fold..you are still getting the right odds to call if you count the hidden outs. 5.5/47. and the implied odds will make up for it also.

b/c if i'm multi-tabling a 3/6 game, i'm not figuring hidden outs, just my straight pot odds for hitting a the gutshot. right or wrong, that's what i do.

[KramitDaToad]

GT123 said:

holman3rd said:

As Kramit implied, this can be very hard to reason through on the fly, particularly during the 20 seconds you are given online to make a decision. I would probably still fold given straight pot odds, and the fact that I don't think that deeply in low-limit hold 'em. Perhaps I should.

yea..of course this wont be going through my head if i had to make a decision at a table...especially when multi tabling. But with experience..i think one would recognise the situation with little thought.

One of the triggers for this hand is the texture of the board. K or Q high, rainbow with little rags. Its a flop that isn't going to hit anybody hard except sets.If you see this type of flop with a big pot start thinking how you can get other players folding to tidy up your outs.Obviously there will be more to consider than that, but keep an eye out for these type of flops as they will usually be won by weak holdings.

[RISEorFall]

You also have to consider your table image here and how people would see you, and if they would react any differently if this raise was made by you or someone else. If they've seen you make this type of reraise before, they might not respect your raise as much and you'll get more callers than you want. You have to know whether the people you're playing with are observant enough to make a read on your raises.