63 replies to this topic

[brando]

No set reads yet, been at the table for about 2 orbits. Table was fairly loose and passive for the most part. Nothing stood out in my mind so far from either opponent.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

Hero ($59.90)
MP2 ($87)
CO ($33.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K , A .
UTG calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($3) 7 , K , J (6 players)
3 checks, Hero bets $3, MP2 raises to $6, CO calls $6, 3 folds, Hero ?

I'm sure I'll get some crap about not raising pf, but this is my default play with this hand in this position.

1.) How do we proceed on the flop?

2.) If people find it valuable to talk about pf then by all means address it.

[Money022]

It's very possible MP2 is on a draw and hopes the mini-raise will cause you to check the turn and let him see the river without having to call another bet. I personally repop it to $15. Fold to a reraise, check/fold UI on the turn.

[Scott3705]

Call.

[brando]

It's very possible MP2 is on a draw and hopes the mini-raise will cause you to check the turn and let him see the river without having to call another bet. I personally repop it to $15. Fold to a reraise, check/fold UI on the turn.

So if one or both opponents call your re-raise you c/f the turn if you whiff?

[hank213]

Actually I don't mind the call pf in EP at a new table with AKo. Makes it nice and easy to get a way from if you whiff and potentially more profitable if you hit strong. The raise from MP2 doesn't scare me as much as the cold call from CO. The min raise could simply be his(MP2) attempt to counter act the small ball tactic of firing at a pot even if you miss or finding out if his second pair is good. The cold call could be a tricky player with a set waiting for you to re-raise before he jams. Of course he could be on the draw with something like Q10 or setting up a bluff given his position, but it's disconcerting. I would probably call, and fire a 2/3 pot bet if the turn is a blank, if it's a danger card fire 1/3-1/2, you might be buying some decent info for later.

[antistuff]

I'm sure I'll get some crap about not raising pf, but this is my default play with this hand in this position.

Care to share why?

[caribstv]

Since we're in the position now regardless on how we got here we're prob behind but We'll have to call here... and see what the turn brings

[brando]

Care to share why?

Sure, I will try to explain why.

The biggest reason I limp is to try to control the pot size. Better put, I just want to keep the pot small OOP without a made hand. Especially in loose games I limp, if people are liberally calling pf raises, I'm OOP and have just started the process in building a big pot.

Limp/Re-Raise. I only use this against certain types of opponents. Not to mention alot of people see this move as AA/KK only so it adds a little bit of deception. So many people love to raise a limped pot, either to isolate or just b/c they are aggressive. Limping gives you lots of ways to play your hand.

It encourages people with weaker A's to limp or raise. You don't make money off of these dominated hands if they fold pre flop, limping allows them to come in the pot. People may enter the pot with those same hands if you had raised, but this just increases the chances.

It's easier to play if you miss, you just c/f without anything. This is probably more of a psychological thing. People, myself included, have problems becoming attached to a pot when they raise pf, this helps you just realize you have nothing in a small pot and can fold.

The biggest thing with limping is playing the flop. You have to get more of people's money when they flop TP vs. your TPTK then they get of yours whenever they flop 2 pair/trips/etc.. vs. your TPTK. Basically, you just have to trust your post flop ability, b/c hands like A4s will be in there, where as if you had raised pf it's possible you could rule that out of villain's range.

That's about all I can think of now, my reasoning may or may not be good, I don't know, but it works for me.

[No_Neck]

I hate AK OOP

[CitizenSpade]

I think it's safe to assume your beat.

With the omnious double raise, and the call, added to the fact that you let these players see a cheap flop just adds to the trouble. You have no info (since everyone limped) and there has been a raise and call. It's a safe bet your beat.

[brando]

Here's the rest the of the hand, I think my line was the best, but it's possible I could be convinced otherwise.

Hero ($59.90)
MP2 ($87)
CO ($33.25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K , A .
UTG calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($3) 7 , K , J (6 players)
3 checks, Hero bets $3, MP2 raises to $6, CO calls $6, 3 folds, Hero raises to $20, MP2 calls , CO folds

Turn: (~$50) 7
Hero pushes ~$36, MP2 folds

I think the turn pretty much plays itself so I"m leaving the results in.

[simo_8ball]

Raise preflop. <--- Not a discussion.

Reraise the flop. You are probably ahead, and you should find out soon if you aren't.

[brando]

Raise preflop. <--- Not a discussion.

I disagree with the bolded part, can you explain why it's a must raise? I already stated my reasons. I also read an article somewhere on 2+2 about a year ago, looked for it earlier today, but didn't find it. Anyways, it was on raising pf in small stakes nl games, it said if you NEVER raised pf you would only be making a small mistake, if any. If I find it, I'll post it, it would make for good discussion.

[simo_8ball]

Raise AK preflop for the same reason you raise any other hand. Value. It is a mistake (however small) not to do so.

[brando]

Raise AK preflop for the same reason you raise any other hand. Value. It is a mistake (however small) not to do so.

If you're UTG or UTG+1 do you always raise these hands(9's, 8's, 5's, 4's, etc..)?

I'm not saying not to raise AK pf, I do it all the time, in this position though, I feel it is the best way to maximize my ev.

The main point of the post was the flop play. I used to play very passively post flop. I've changed it up and have been more aggressive and it has improved my game.

My plan on the flop, after I raised, was to fold to a re-raise. If called, push any non scare card turn. Is that line on the flop optimal?

[Zach6668]

You can't equate AK to 4s and 5s.

AK is totally different. You'd rather be HU with AK, 4s/5s you want multiway action.

[brando]

You can't equate AK to 4s and 5s.

AK is totally different. You'd rather be HU with AK, 4s/5s you want multiway action.

Not equating the hands, just his logic "raise for value". If you run those pairs through poker stove I'm sure they have +equity against 9 random hands. I just really dislike when people say "not a discussion" or "do this", but don't explain why.

It's just not very helpful, we're here to learn and to discuss. And I also believe that limping maximizes my value in the hand for the reasons I stated earlier.

What do you think about the line on the flop?

[aadams_22]

raise both PF and the flop

[simo_8ball]

I almost never open limp. Yes, I raise 44, 67s and TT utg, and all to the same amount.

I think your line on the flop is fine.

[burbs42]

The biggest reason I limp is to try to control the pot size.

You have a better chance at controlling the pot size by raising. Limping lets others in, as in your hand you take a flop with 6 PLAYERS. THATS A LOT! If you raise here, I would expect UTG to call, but it is quite likely that you eliminate many of the players that limped ahead of you, as a typical raised pot goes to the flop 2 or 3 handed. Against 3 players, TPTK is much better than against 6, and MP2 might even pay you off with his weaker hand, as he has now committed more chips.

I could go on, but nutshell: Raise good, call bad.