Instructive Hand (.50/1)

[CobaltBlue 662]

So someone sent me an interesting hand the other day, and I thought it'd be good if we went through an exercise in planning our action...FCP .50/1 NLHE (9-handed)Hero $65Button $75Hero is MP w/ 8 7 . Only been at the table 20 minutes, but Button has been very active (aggressive) in making plays at pots.Pre-flop:3 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, Button raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero callsFlop ($7.50): K 8 7 (2 players)Hero ?

[DonkSlayer 1]

I bet $3, expecting to be raised to $7-$10, in which case I will raise to $25. I would expect a fold unless button has a set, Ah, or flopped the flush.

[zsta2k6 0]

So someone sent me an interesting hand the other day, and I thought it'd be good if we went through an exercise in planning our action...FCP .50/1 NLHE (9-handed)Hero $65Button $75Hero is MP w/ 8 7 . Only been at the table 20 minutes, but Button has been very active (aggressive) in making plays at pots.Pre-flop:3 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, Button raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero callsFlop ($7.50): K 8 7 (2 players)Hero ?

I'm sorry, way off topic, but...I love the power glove... It's sooo bad

[Jordan 1]

Fold pf. 65 big blinds and he is limping in with this hand?As played, go broke on the flop somehow.- Jordan

[Scott3705 0]

I bet $3, expecting to be raised to $7-$10, in which case I will raise to $25. I would expect a fold unless button has a set, Ah, or flopped the flush.

Yea, I like weak leading, hoping for a reraise and then 3-betting. I'd probably reload pf and if i couldn't fold preflop w/ an aggressive button.

[CoranMoran 0]

If Hero is willing to call Button's preflop raise, he should open raise with it himself.Otherwise, open fold preflop.Open limp-calling one Villain is very weak.You must be aggressive post flop.Take the course of action that gets the most money in on the flop.Bet-raise is probably better than check-raise.--CM

[simo_8ball 1]

Don't open limp. That's a good start.Given that you limped, I don't mind the call of $3.Lead the flop for 1/2 pot.

[Peak01 0]

I don't find this play as bad as others here. I don't mind the open limp then calling the raise. I think you hit the flop good and I would lead with a weak bet as well and look for the reraise.

[Verdimme 0]

I don't find this play as bad as others here. I don't mind the open limp then calling the raise. I think you hit the flop good and I would lead with a weak bet as well and look for the reraise.

Being OOP with a drawing hand without the initiative is not a recipe to make lots of $$$.As for the hand, I'd bet around 5. If he is raising, he wont need a weak lead to do that. Hands like KQ with the Q of hearts will anyway. It would suck if he just smooth calls our weak lead with only the Ah, because we give him excellent odds to draw then.

[leducks2004 0]

I like betting half the pot here and see what button does. You probably have the best hand right now and if your re raised i agree with the previous replies by reraising big to around 25 to give him incorrect odds to call if hes on a draw

[CobaltBlue 662]

Guys...I can support a lead and hope for a raise...but you realize how thin our "edge" is here, right? Anything that's drawing against us is drawing quite live...to the point of a coin flip (and thus will have correct odds to call whatever we bet). There's a lot of money left to get into this pot, and I'm not quite sure why y'all want to get all of it in at this juncture. What does pumping this pot do? We're certainly never going to fold a better hand and there are a number of very live hands that are going to love putting everything in.I really think this is a clear case where we take a "cautious" approach (either with a bet/call or check/call), see the turn, and reevaluate there. There are a lot of terrible cards that could come off, and our equity is going to change quite a bit there.

[Scott3705 0]

Guys...I can support a lead and hope for a raise...but you realize how thin our "edge" is here, right? Anything that's drawing against us is drawing quite live...to the point of a coin flip (and thus will have correct odds to call whatever we bet). There's a lot of money left to get into this pot, and I'm not quite sure why y'all want to get all of it in at this juncture. What does pumping this pot do? We're certainly never going to fold a better hand and there are a number of very live hands that are going to love putting everything in.I really think this is a clear case where we take a "cautious" approach (either with a bet/call or check/call), see the turn, and reevaluate there. There are a lot of terrible cards that could come off, and our equity is going to change quite a bit there.

Our edge is really thin only if we find the type of hand that really has business coming with us. We can weak lead and get played around with from a number of hands here that aren't going to continue past the flop. I'd rather get aggressive on the flop because of the very fact that there are a lot of terrible cards that can come off that can make us fold the best hand at the turn often enough w/o knowing. The next best line would be a C/c on the flop, Followed by a C/F to a scare card and a C/R to a non-scare card. I count 23 scare cards tho, so we'C/Fing the turn close to 50% of the time

[DonkSlayer 1]

Don't open limp. That's a good start.Given that you limped, I don't mind the call of $3.Lead the flop for 1/2 pot.

I disagree that open-limping in a NL cash game is necessarily a bad thing.

I'd rather get aggressive on the flop because of the very fact that there are a lot of terrible cards that can come off that can make us fold the best hand at the turn often enough w/o knowing.

Hey, can I get a QFT?

[Money022 0]

Amen brother, Quoted For Truth.I would rather place a strong bet and look to take it down. If called and the turn is a non heart, I'm jamming it enough to give incorrect odds to be called by a flush draw.

[simo_8ball 1]

I disagree that open-limping in a NL cash game is necessarily a bad thing.

It takes a very passive and weak table before I will open-limp. At $25NL or less I would be ok with it on occasion. Open limping with a weak hand means you need to open limp with strong hands on occasion. I don't like that at all.

[Scott3705 0]

I disagree that open-limping in a NL cash game is necessarily a bad thing.

I agree, but this is why I think it's bad in this instance:

Button has been very active (aggressive) in making plays at pots

[CobaltBlue 662]

Our edge is really thin only if we find the type of hand that really has business coming with us....I'd rather get aggressive on the flop because of the very fact that there are a lot of terrible cards that can come off that can make us fold the best hand at the turn often enough w/o knowing.

And if he plays with us (and he likely will), he probably has a hand that has business playing with us. Again, I don't mind betting out on the flop, but I really don't want to get a lot of money in at this point. We're either decently ahead, barely ahead, or way behind. We're not likely to get action when we're decently ahead...and we're out of position against an active opponent, so our visibility for what scenario we're in isn't good.If we had top two or a set, I certainly wouldn't disagree with getting the money in on the flop if possible. The problem is that we're only one step up from a mere pair.Let me say this...you're scared that we'll fold the best hand if a scare card comes off. If we get action and a scare card comes off, we're probably beat. Now we're out of position in a bloated pot. Best to keep the pot "small" on the flop, so it's not a big deal if we have to fold.

[Scott3705 0]

And if he plays with us (and he likely will), he probably has a hand that has business playing with us. Again, I don't mind betting out on the flop, but I really don't want to get a lot of money in at this point. We're either decently ahead, barely ahead, or way behind. We're not likely to get action when we're decently ahead...and we're out of position against an active opponent, so our visibility for what scenario we're in isn't good.If we had top two or a set, I certainly wouldn't disagree with getting the money in on the flop if possible. The problem is that we're only one step up from a mere pair.

See I think we need to make a connect between thinking he'll play with us and needing a hand to play with us. Do we think he'll play with us with top pair no heart? nut draw, no hear? Of do we think he'll only play with us with top pair and draw at a minimum. If the latter, then a flop bet takes the pot down a lot. If it doesn't take down the pot, then we're drawing to 50/50 and likely to get it all in if we 3-bet. So as our equity increases on the turn, we can open bet the turn if nothing comes and hope scare cards are scare cards for him too. If he's the former, then i'd rather bet into him and not allow the turn and river to fuc k w/ my head.

[DonkSlayer 1]

And if he plays with us (and he likely will), he probably has a hand that has business playing with us. Again, I don't mind betting out on the flop, but I really don't want to get a lot of money in at this point. We're either decently ahead, barely ahead, or way behind. We're not likely to get action when we're decently ahead...and we're out of position against an active opponent, so our visibility for what scenario we're in isn't good.If we had top two or a set, I certainly wouldn't disagree with getting the money in on the flop if possible. The problem is that we're only one step up from a mere pair.Let me say this...you're scared that we'll fold the best hand if a scare card comes off. If we get action and a scare card comes off, we're probably beat. Now we're out of position in a bloated pot. Best to keep the pot "small" on the flop, so it's not a big deal if we have to fold.

But, we don't WANT to fold. If a lot of cards turn/river that beat us, the pot won't stay small, and we'll have to fold. What we're saying is "let's take it down now." Our bets aren't to build the pot. If he does call and the turn is fortunate and bricks anything scary, we hit it very hard again. We want to take it down when we're sure we're good.

It takes a very passive and weak table before I will open-limp. At $25NL or less I would be ok with it on occasion. Open limping with a weak hand means you need to open limp with strong hands on occasion. I don't like that at all.

Well, against a very passive table and sometimes against very aggro players, I do like limping with strong hands. A limp-reraise/push or dropping the hammer on the riv against an aggro is a good way to keep them in line.

I agree, but this is why I think it's bad in this instance:

Well, as stated above, I don't think it's awful. The problem with open-limping against an aggro here is that if the villain's range is very wide, we could be drawing very thin against an A-4, A-7, 8-7, etc. etc. I thought Cobalt was implying that the villain was active POSTFLOP vs. preflop, in which case limping seems better than if he's making a lot of moves preflop.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Our bets aren't to build the pot.

Yes, but that's certainly a byproduct. Again, I'm certainly with y'all on the betting out. (Though I don't hate check/calling either.) Where I'm not with y'all is 3-betting if he raises. If he pushes, we're in kind of a sucky spot...and probably have to call given his reputation and the board texture. If he just calls the 3-bet and a terrible card comes off..."Well, sh|t...now what?" I think that 3-betting is just going to bloat the pot unnecessarily when our equity edge is likely nothing.