small stack...jump in or get out?

[DwayneWayne 0]

Situations like this when short stacked seem to come up a lot....when to push and when to pull?$150 Super Wednesday NL on Party. 808 players, top 90 pay.1st is 25K9th is 2K64 players left, Avg stack 12,500 (approx)I have 5100, probably in around 55th place. Places are paid in 10 person invtervals (ie. 51-60th).I am on the BB and post 1K, leaving me with 4100. UTG who has 7000 min raises (2K to go). Folded to a LP who is the small stack, he pushes all in for 2400. Folded to me.I have KdJs.Call, Push, Fold?

[darksung 0]

re-raise all-in

[The Dude 0]

I'd fold here, chances are you're dominated. The minimum raise indicates some strength as it's just short of 1/3 his stack. I think you're better off taking your chances on the next hand and pushing with any two cards if no raises. The problem is the structure is leaving this a crap shoot. If the average stack only has 12xbb you have to push or fold, calling is not an option for you.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I'd fold here, chances are you're dominated. The minimum raise indicates some strength as it's just short of 1/3 his stack. I think you're better off taking your chances on the next hand and pushing with any two cards if no raises.  The problem is the structure is leaving this a crap shoot. If the average stack only has 12xbb you have to push or fold, calling is not an option for you.

Good post. I agree with most everything he says, though I dunno about the pushing next hand with any two cards if no one raises. It depends on the type of player on his left and how much chips the guy has. It also depends on how much the original poster values the money he'll get for the next money jump.About the original hand in question though, if you push here, you are likely to be called and then you will be involved in a 3-way pot with K-J. Not a very good situation.

[DwayneWayne 0]

That was my thinking, when the small stack pushes he is on A-x at absolute worst, and the min raise by the small stack UTG screamed strength, I did say I was gonna call the bet if it folded to me. The LP small stack pushed so I mucked.UTG turned over QQ, and the LP turned over AQ and the QQ held up. (K hit the flop and river to rub it in)I pushed on the next few hands and got my stack up to around 8K before the final hand came:UTG (with around 13K) limps, folded to me in MP, I have As9s and I push (stupid?), well folded back to UTG who calls. He has AJ......the end. 43rd place.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

That was my thinking, when the small stack pushes he is on A-x at absolute worst, and the min raise by the small stack UTG screamed strength, I did say I was gonna call the bet if it folded to me. The LP small stack pushed so I mucked.UTG turned over QQ, and the LP turned over AQ and the QQ held up. (K hit the flop and river to rub it in)I pushed on the next few hands and got my stack up to around 8K before the final hand came:UTG (with around 13K) limps, folded to me in MP, I have As9s and I push (stupid?), well folded back to UTG who calls. He has AJ......the end. 43rd place.

Were the blinds still 500/1k? If so, maybe a little reckless, but when people limp with blinds that high, they usually will fold if you push them around. Not that many players will limp UTG with a powerhouse once the blinds get that large, so I don't really dislike the move that much. If the blinds were even higher than 500/1k, then pushing is alright I think. You don't mention your position though. If you were in EP or MP, I don't like it as much. LP or blinds, it's a little better.

[DwayneWayne 0]

No one limped.UTG min raised, made it 2K to go, LP raised all in total of 2300 or so, I was in the BB.

[Guest XXEddie]

gotta push in hereyour down to just 5xBB and your in the BB meaning 1/5 of your stack is in the potThere are some cases in which you could fold here but KJo is not one of them

[DwayneWayne 0]

"gotta push in hereyour down to just 5xBB and your in the BB meaning 1/5 of your stack is in the potThere are some cases in which you could fold here but KJo is not one of them"I know ppl are gonna flame the idea of folding just to progress into the pay out....I have 5 times the BB behind me after this fold, if I push I am never in 1st, and VERY rarely will I be in 2nd place pre-flop.Why not wait and collect the check so to speak. While waiting for a spot that you atleast have a chance to push with the best hand PF?

[Guest XXEddie]

I have 5 times the BB behind me after this fold, if I push I am never in 1st, and VERY rarely will I be in 2nd place pre-flop. you are extrememly short stacked.....you cant pick your battlesWhy not wait and collect the check so to speak. While waiting for a spot that you atleast have a chance to push with the best hand PF?because moving allin here gives you a much better chance of acually winning

[Swift_Psycho 1]

I have 5 times the BB behind me after this fold, if I push I am never in 1st, and VERY rarely will I be in 2nd place pre-flop. you are extrememly short stacked.....you cant pick your battlesWhy not wait and collect the check so to speak. While waiting for a spot that you atleast have a chance to push with the best hand PF?because moving allin here gives you a much better chance of acually winning

Eddie, we have had this dispute before and I guess it just didn't hit you when I explained it then. Not everyone is looking to win! The guy is down really short and the chances of coming back to win are almost non-existent. So, unless the pay jump is so small that it wouldn't mean anything (like in a $1 MTT), some people will start to try and bide their time to move up in the money. I have no doubt that you would go for the win in every tourney you enter, but not everyone will want to gamble it up as much as you all the time. Going for the win can lead to a high finish, but much more often an earlier exit than if you had just bided your time.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

No one limped.UTG min raised, made it 2K to go, LP raised all in total of 2300 or so, I was in the BB.

I think you misunderstood the context in the question I asked. I know all of that info. I already responded to it. I was responding to this:I pushed on the next few hands and got my stack up to around 8K before the final hand came: UTG (with around 13K) limps, folded to me in MP, I have As9s and I push (stupid?), well folded back to UTG who calls. He has AJ......the end. 43rd place.Here was my answer and question:Were the blinds still 500/1k? If so, maybe a little reckless, but when people limp with blinds that high, they usually will fold if you push them around. Not that many players will limp UTG with a powerhouse once the blinds get that large, so I don't really dislike the move that much. If the blinds were even higher than 500/1k, then pushing is alright I think. You don't mention your position though. If you were in EP or MP, I don't like it as much. LP or blinds, it's a little better.

[holman3rd 0]

gotta push in hereyour down to just 5xBB and your in the BB meaning 1/5 of your stack is in the potThere are some cases in which you could fold here but KJo is not one of them

I completely understand the merits of pushing here, given stack size, but I don't think you "gotta" push by any means. In this spot, you are likely pushing yourself to the rail. I believe it's better to have an even smaller stack than nothing. Here's why I would fold:The min raise by UTG is suspicious, given his stack size. Looks like he wants action. The re-raise all-in, if made a by a decent player, shows that he knows 2 things: 1) that he's aware that the UTG raise looks strong, and 2) he KNOWS he will get called by UTG. That said, his all-in push looks very strong as well. KJ shrinks up quite a bit in this situation. I believe you'd be looking a big pocket pair (1010 or better) AND two high cards (worst case AJ) from both of your opponents.I could care less if the short stack gets busted out...my fold is not about moving up one spot on the money list (which ain't much). It's about not getting knocked out...I think the chances of getting railed here are just too high.

[The Dude 0]

gotta push in hereyour down to just 5xBB and your in the BB meaning 1/5 of your stack is in the potThere are some cases in which you could fold here but KJo is not one of them

I completely understand the merits of pushing here, given stack size, but I don't think you "gotta" push by any means. In this spot, you are likely pushing yourself to the rail. I believe it's better to have an even smaller stack than nothing. Here's why I would fold:The min raise by UTG is suspicious, given his stack size. Looks like he wants action. The re-raise all-in, if made a by a decent player, shows that he knows 2 things: 1) that he's aware that the UTG raise looks strong, and 2) he KNOWS he will get called by UTG. That said, his all-in push looks very strong as well. KJ shrinks up quite a bit in this situation. I believe you'd be looking a big pocket pair (1010 or better) AND two high cards (worst case AJ) from both of your opponents.I could care less if the short stack gets busted out...my fold is not about moving up one spot on the money list (which ain't much). It's about not getting knocked out...I think the chances of getting railed here are just too high.

Great post and exactly why I think fold is the only option in this situation. All though I think A-K is worst case scenario not A-J.

[holman3rd 0]

gotta push in hereyour down to just 5xBB and your in the BB meaning 1/5 of your stack is in the potThere are some cases in which you could fold here but KJo is not one of them

I completely understand the merits of pushing here, given stack size, but I don't think you "gotta" push by any means. In this spot, you are likely pushing yourself to the rail. I believe it's better to have an even smaller stack than nothing. Here's why I would fold:The min raise by UTG is suspicious, given his stack size. Looks like he wants action. The re-raise all-in, if made a by a decent player, shows that he knows 2 things: 1) that he's aware that the UTG raise looks strong, and 2) he KNOWS he will get called by UTG. That said, his all-in push looks very strong as well. KJ shrinks up quite a bit in this situation. I believe you'd be looking a big pocket pair (1010 or better) AND two high cards (worst case AJ) from both of your opponents.I could care less if the short stack gets busted out...my fold is not about moving up one spot on the money list (which ain't much). It's about not getting knocked out...I think the chances of getting railed here are just too high.

Great post and exactly why I think fold is the only option in this situation. All though I think A-K is worst case scenario not A-J.

Agreed. My AJ worst case was based on no reads on the players--I tend to give them a wider range of possible hands. Either way, we'd be in bad shape.

[DwayneWayne 0]

Yes the Blinds were still 500-1000 when i finnally pushed with the A9s. I was in MP.My hope was UTG has a PP and I had my card still live, looking to race.....

[Guest XXEddie]

Not everyone is looking to win!then they shouldnt be playing

[Guest XXEddie]

Here's why I would fold: The min raise by UTG is suspicious, given his stack size. Looks like he wants action. The re-raise all-in, if made a by a decent player, shows that he knows 2 things: 1) that he's aware that the UTG raise looks strong, and 2) he KNOWS he will get called by UTG. That said, his all-in push looks very strong as well. KJ shrinks up quite a bit in this situation. I believe you'd be looking a big pocket pair (1010 or better) AND two high cards (worst case AJ) from both of your opponents. I could care less if the short stack gets busted out...my fold is not about moving up one spot on the money list (which ain't much). It's about not getting knocked out...I think the chances of getting railed here are just too high.it doesnt matter if the raise of the minimum....the point is you only have 5xBB....1/5 of that is already committed to the pot....YOU CAN NOT FOLD....its the play....and someone also pointed out....dont member who.....that they would fold and go allin the next hand with any two cards..........that person....should be smacked....what if the same crap happens again...and you have to fold again, then youre down to 3.5xBB which going allin then will get ZERO legit hands out......ARGH, you stupid people really annoy me

[holman3rd 0]

Here's why I would fold: The min raise by UTG is suspicious, given his stack size. Looks like he wants action. The re-raise all-in, if made a by a decent player, shows that he knows 2 things: 1) that he's aware that the UTG raise looks strong, and 2) he KNOWS he will get called by UTG. That said, his all-in push looks very strong as well. KJ shrinks up quite a bit in this situation. I believe you'd be looking a big pocket pair (1010 or better) AND two high cards (worst case AJ) from both of your opponents. I could care less if the short stack gets busted out...my fold is not about moving up one spot on the money list (which ain't much). It's about not getting knocked out...I think the chances of getting railed here are just too high.it doesnt matter if the raise of the minimum....the point is you only have 5xBB....1/5 of that is already committed to the pot....YOU CAN NOT FOLD....its the play....and someone also pointed out....dont member who.....that they would fold and go allin the next hand with any two cards..........that person....should be smacked....what if the same crap happens again...and you have to fold again, then youre down to 3.5xBB which going allin then will get ZERO legit hands out......ARGH, you stupid people really annoy me

People who think they know everything and refuse to consider other points of view annoy me.Going into the SB on the next hand you still have 4xBB, which still has fold equity. This is a full table and you have another orbit to either steal the blinds or pick up a bigger hand. You're the kind of guy that would get killed by a guy running a red light, but your tombstone would read, "but i had the right of way".In this hand, if UTG flips AA you'd say, "but i only had 5x BB left." Tell it to the railbirds.Pompous ass.

[holman3rd 0]

Not everyone is looking to win!then they shouldnt be playing

Not my comment, but it was obviously taken out of context and not what he meant.I'd add, "not everyone is looking to run into a brick wall".

[The Dude 0]

and someone also pointed out....dont member who.....that they would fold and go allin the next hand with any two cards..........that person....should be smacked....what if the same crap happens again...and you have to fold again, then youre down to 3.5xBB which going allin then will get ZERO legit hands out It was me who said I'd push the next hand and I stand by it. What I said was if no raises I'm going all-in. If I feel I've got two live cards I'm only looking at being a 60/40 dog if called. Thats got to be better than taking a pot shot with this K-Jo crap and not having a clue where you are, probably way behind with two others in the pot.I await my smack .......

[holman3rd 0]

and someone also pointed out....dont member who.....that they would fold and go allin the next hand with any two cards..........that person....should be smacked....what if the same crap happens again...and you have to fold again, then youre down to 3.5xBB which going allin then will get ZERO legit hands out It was me who said I'd push the next hand and I stand by it. What I said was if no raises I'm going all-in. If I feel I've got two live cards I'm only looking at being a 60/40 dog if called. Thats got to be better than taking a pot shot with this K-Jo crap and not having a clue where you are, probably way behind with two others in the pot.I await my smack .......

And, like I said, you still have another orbit to steal the blinds. If it happens that the next hand is folded around to me when I'm in the small blind, I push with any two also.

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Not everyone is looking to win!then they shouldnt be playing

Man you are thick. You should be looking to win when you first start a tournament, but if you are on an extremely short stack late in the tourney and can move up in the money by biding your time (and that pay jump actually means something to you), why not? The chances of coming back to win practically no longer exist. Quit being so blinded and stubborn with your beliefs.

[Guest XXEddie]

People who think they know everything and refuse to consider other points of view annoy me. Going into the SB on the next hand you still have 4xBB, which still has fold equity. This is a full table and you have another orbit to either steal the blinds or pick up a bigger hand. You're the kind of guy that would get killed by a guy running a red light, but your tombstone would read, "but i had the right of way". In this hand, if UTG flips AA you'd say, "but i only had 5x BB left." Tell it to the railbirds. Pompous ass.never did I say I know everything all I said was this should be an automatic allin, you cant pick your battle short stackedand if UTG flipped AA, id say "At least I played it right, cant fold KJo there with my stack"It was me who said I'd push the next hand and I stand by it. What I said was if no raises I'm going all-in. If I feel I've got two live cards I'm only looking at being a 60/40 dog if called. Thats got to be better than taking a pot shot with this K-Jo crap and not having a clue where you are, probably way behind with two others in the pot. I await my smack ....... theres a prob with this statement.....IF no one raises and IF you think you cards are live, what if you think they arent are it does get raised...then you fold again....now your down to 3.5xBB....not enough to force out any decent hand And, like I said, you still have another orbit to steal the blinds. If it happens that the next hand is folded around to me when I'm in the small blind, I push with any two also.again IF its folded....blah blahand good luck trying to steal the blinds with a measelly 3.5xBBMan you are thick. You should be looking to win when you first start a tournament, but if you are on an extremely short stack late in the tourney and can move up in the money by biding your time (and that pay jump actually means something to you), why not? The chances of coming back to win practically no longer exist. Quit being so blinded and stubborn with your beliefs.maybe for some idiots they dont want to win....but you still should always be trying to make the correct plays

[Swift_Psycho 1]

maybe for some idiots they dont want to win....but you still should always be trying to make the correct playsAnd the correct play for someone who wants to move up in the money because he knows the chances of coming back to win at that point in the tourney are practically non-existant would be...folding.