Wild Table, Aces Up, Huge Pot @ 2/4

[akishore 0]

2/4 sixThis table was on fire. Super aggro both pre and post. Particularly CO and Button were both maniacal but actually borderline good sometimes when they got other players to fold in big pots. But they were constantly mucking things like ace high unimproved or missed draws (when they'd raise the river with 10 high), etc. Their lag styles were causing everyone to loosen up out of frustration.I limp UTG with A A , MP raises, CO three-bets, Button caps cold, blinds fold, everyone calls.(17.5 sb, 4 plrs) 4 8 K I check, MP checks, CO checks, Button bets, I raise, MP cold-calls, CO cold-calls, Button three-bets, I cap, all call.(16 bb, 4 plrs) Q I bet, MP raises, CO folds, Button three-bets, I call, MP calls.(22 bb, 3 plrs) 4 I check, MP bets, Button raises, I ...Gross gross gross gross gross. I wanted to puke ten times over here.Button is really a super donk but I felt (I don't call this a read because I wasn't so confident in this) that he wasn't three-betting the turn AND raising the river with a (missed on the river) draw... it didn't seem to add up. But honestly, he could have a weird two pair or just a top pair of Kx which he now thinks is good on the river.MP is the really sticky one here. He would normally be a loose and average (in terms of passiveness) fish, but the fact is that this fiery table was clearly affecting his play and causing him to play weirdly selectively aggressive.For example, I had in my notes that in another hand, he was involved in a three-way pot with the CO and Button and he bet/three-bet the turn with QJ on a AJ43 board and bet/called the 3 river (and lost to CO's 4-3). He could clearly be tilting a little. On the other hand, I hadn't seem him raise much at all preflop, including KQo before (but on that hand, he had just cold-called a raise of mine, so he just didn't three-bet KQo... I have no idea if he would have raised it had I limped).So what I was sick worried about was that MP had flopped/turned a set and now boated, and/or (and I'm much less worried about this) that Button has a flush.I hate folding, especially knowing that MP might be tilting here, but he honestly doesn't raise pf much AND his line of just-call-turn-3bet-and-lead-out-when-board-pairs scares the **** out of me.So thoughts on river? Is it really a crying cold-call, not that close? Also, do you play any other street differently?Thanks,Aseem

[mrdannyg 274]

throwing up is a good start.past that, if we believe both the bet and raiser are capable of doing so with one pair, we have no choice but to call in such a huge pot.i do think that we have to have seen this behaviour from them before though before we call two cold on the river with just an overpair.given the board, opponents, and turn action, a 4 is pretty unlikely unless it just filled someone up, and since no one is expecting aces, we could easily be against a naked king, something who had their two pair counterfeited and didn't notice, or something with KQ/K8 who thinks they are value-betting another king.frankly, this looks too much like K8 or KQ for me to muck it. if it gets 3-bet you probably have to buy a new monitor, so a fold may be a better metagame decision

[Zach6668 513]

This hand is disgusting.I'm with you guys here, call, puke, purchase new monitor.

[rwood 0]

i really want to know what was shown down

[akishore 0]

Okay, before the results are posted, I want to say that I think river situations like these (don't have to be nearly as sick) are THE part of my game that I continuously question -- I am just never sure.On the one hand, folding always sucks because the pot is so big and you don't need to be right barely that often to make a call +EV.On the other hand, I know that the vast majority of the time, I do not have the best hand, so it seems like a waste of chips.So, I hate calling here, but I hate folding. I hate calling even more because we gotta call two cold. I hate folding even more because of that super donk. But I hate calling even more because MP will often three-bet. But I just hate folding because I am a fish deep down.Yargh!So after almost timing out, I forced myself to click the call button in disgust. I expected MP to three-bet, but.... no, he just called.And what is this, the pot is getting shipped to me???Both MP and Button had KQ???My hand is GOOD???????In the words of Borat, "wawaweewa!!!"So, if we want to be all results oriented, this is a call. But in seriousness, I really have no freaking clue and I am really not sure these results happen frequently enough (roughly 1 in 11 or 1 in 12, maybe even more often when taking into consideration the times MP three-bets) to really make it an easy crying call.But for now, I always have been and will continue to err on the side of calling. Those reverse implied tilt odds sure do suck, when you fold and it turns out you had the best hand.Your fellow crying-caller,Aseem

[KDawgCometh 2]

So, if we want to be all results oriented, this is a call. But in seriousness, I really have no freaking clue and I am really not sure these results happen frequently enough (roughly 1 in 11 or 1 in 12, maybe even more often when taking into consideration the times MP three-bets) to really make it an easy crying call.

Before I saw the results I thought it was a call, but honestly, I think taht with the table being as crazy aggro as it is, I would just raise it up anyway PF and start playing it uber fast on both the flop and turn. Given the description I don't see how this would ever not be a call on teh river as the pot is just so friggin huge and these guys are making no sense whatsoever, any less aggro of a table and I'm mucking the river in a sec

[akishore 0]

Before I saw the results I thought it was a call, but honestly, I think taht with the table being as crazy aggro as it is, I would just raise it up anyway PF and start playing it uber fast on both the flop and turn. Given the description I don't see how this would ever not be a call on teh river as the pot is just so friggin huge and these guys are making no sense whatsoever, any less aggro of a table and I'm mucking the river in a sec

I don't understand what you're saying exactly... are you implying I didn't play it fast? I certainly did. I tried at every opportunity to isolate button since he was the uber donk, but I didn't slowplay ever. Limping UTG was no big deal because it was capped anyway. And the flop I check-raise-capped, so it's not like I slowplayed there.I don't think betting the flop is a good idea at all if you are guaranteed a checkraise.And the river is tough because of MP, although I did say he may have been tilting.Thanks,Aseem

[KDawgCometh 2]

I don't understand what you're saying exactly... are you implying I didn't play it fast? I certainly did. I tried at every opportunity to isolate button since he was the uber donk, but I didn't slowplay ever. Limping UTG was no big deal because it was capped anyway. And the flop I check-raise-capped, so it's not like I slowplayed there.I don't think betting the flop is a good idea at all if you are guaranteed a checkraise.And the river is tough because of MP, although I did say he may have been tilting.Thanks,Aseem

what I'm saying is that you got fancy with it when just playing it straight up probably would've been the best move. Against these players, I don't think limping PF and then going for a CR on the flop is needed when just as many bets will be put in if you play it straight.With a capped pot, betting the flop will most likely allow us to bet/three bet it as someone is going to raise it, but by going for a CR, we possibly allow the betting to get shut down with only two sbs each as opposed to most likely getting in 3 sbs a piece from whoever is in the pot. You're hand isn't strong enough to allow yourself to get fancy. If you had a set on teh flop, then I could maybe see some leeway, but with only a pair of aces and the amount of action that will go in, I just play it straight and at light speed

[antistuff 0]

i want to make it three, but i think i feel that way just from the tone in your post.