Kk---tough Flop Decision

[goheels 0]

This is my second hand at the table. Poker StarsNo Limit Holdem Ring gameBlinds: $0.25/$0.508 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $9.10UTG+1: $15.75MP1: $47.25MP2: $56.15CO: $9.20Button: $49.85Hero: $49.50BB: $92.70Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is SB with :K :K UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.5, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.Flop: :5 :8 :q ($10.5, 4 players)Hero bets $7, UTG+1 raises all-in $13.25, MP1 folds, MP2 raises to $20.25.JAS II??????????Clearly I need to raise more preflop, but I've been playing on UB and this is my first couple of days on Stars and the players are WAY looser...now I know.

[Mattnxtc 0]

instacalland PS...please use the converter

[simo_8ball 1]

You could be against AcXc and QJ. I push here and I don't think too much of it. You can easily have the best hand. There are a lot of potential draws out there, and Wogo can easily have any queen and be raising to find out where he is.(You know copernicus, you may be right. I think I may just be a maniacal pushbot)

instacall

Wogo isn't allin. Instapush is a better choice.

[goheels 0]

I agree that a push is better then a call. It was $13.25 more to me and I had $40 at the time leaving me with $26.75 for the turn and river which is only half of what was in the pot.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Alll-eeeen.You won't see any cards on the turn or river that will make you feel better.

[Verdimme 0]

Alll-eeeen.You won't see any cards on the turn or river that will make you feel better.

A red K? But I agree, get it in.

[MasterLJ 0]

I'm not sure when you guys would advocate a fold with overpair, if not here?This is read dependent, but I highly doubt you are ahead here. Bet->raise->smooth call? Yikes.Actions from best to worst: fold->push->callI might be willing to go broke here if either have shown a propensity to overvalue TPTK or to push with draws, but no read was included.

[goheels 0]

This was my second hand at the table, so I had no reads at all. At the time I was trying to put myself in MP2's shoes. He's seen me raise to 5X PF out of position, get 3 callers and bet into all of them on a Q high flop. He has to know I'm strong. It's tough folding an overpair, but like LJ said, if not with this action when?

[fckthis 0]

At this level, you will find players doing this with Qx, rather than a set or 2 pair. If its readless, I have to get my money in on this flop. With a read on MP1, and a good one mind you, you could fold here.

[MasterLJ 0]

At this level, you will find players doing this with Qx, rather than a set or 2 pair. If its readless, I have to get my money in on this flop. With a read on MP1, and a good one mind you, you could fold here.

I'm the opposite. I need a read to *push* here.EDIT: call = push

[caribstv 0]

I'm the opposite. I need a read to *push* here.EDIT: call = push

Either Push or Fold.....you're betting preflop was wayy too light! and you have all these poeple in the pot with you

[goheels 0]

Carib...To me it's defnitely a push or fold situation...my question really is which one is it?I addressed the PF raise, I guess 5 BBs doesn't get it done on Stars, that would have everyone on UB running for the hills screaming.

[fckthis 0]

Stakes are an important factor here. Look back at Zachs KK preflop dilemma. If he actually gave villian credit in that spot, he lays down the best hand. I think shoving here is +EV, just due to the raising range of MP1.

[MasterLJ 0]

Either Push or Fold.....you're betting preflop was wayy too light! and you have all these poeple in the pot with you

We are all aware it's push or fold, hence why I edited my post that you quoted so that it reflected such.5xBB opening a pot is just fine for a raise.

Stakes are an important factor here. Look back at Zachs KK preflop dilemma. If he actually gave villian credit in that spot, he lays down the best hand. I think shoving here is +EV, just due to the raising range of MP1.

I just can't agree with the stakes argument anymore. They are different from one another but the fact is there are many many competent and capable players at the low stakes these days since it seems everyone is a student of poker.Yesterday I'm UTG with AK ($25 NL), I raise, get the BB as a caller. Flop is AA6. I check behind. Turn is an A, I check behind. River is a Q. BB leads for $1 into a $3 pot. I raise to $5. He says, "Anyone else, I would call, or probably raise, but not you," and mucks. Wow... not only did he make a good play based on me playing mediocre, but he was intelligent enough to discern between me and the other players (using and understanding PokerTracker etc). These are not your $25NL players of 2 years ago.So ask yourself what range of 2 hands do we beat here? Not only that, but our buddy smooth calls an all-in after you've shown strength and so has someone else. I would say that it's probably 50/50 if you are ahead or behind *IF* MP2 is a tremendous donkey. Other than that you are behind here at a $10 NL table, a $25 NL, a $50 NL .... and a $1000NL table.The moral of the story is this... if UTG+1 and MP2 are that big of donkeys (especially MP2) to get their money in here while being behind KKs, then you are best off waiting for a different situation in time to extract a few buy-ins. Specifically, a situation where you have much more control.p.s. This is absolutely nothing like Zach's post. First off, there is simply no conditions I can think of where laying down KK heads-up pre-flop is ever acceptable even at the big-game (Farha vs. Greenstein for example in HSP). The only conditions where it's ok to even consider laying down kings would be multiway all-ins before you.

[fckthis 0]

We are all aware it's push or fold, hence why I edited my post that you quoted so that it reflected such.5xBB opening a pot is just fine for a raise.I just can't agree with the stakes argument anymore. They are different from one another but the fact is there are many many competent and capable players at the low stakes these days since it seems everyone is a student of poker.Yesterday I'm UTG with AK ($25 NL), I raise, get the BB as a caller. Flop is AA6. I check behind. Turn is an A, I check behind. River is a Q. BB leads for $1 into a $3 pot. I raise to $5. He says, "Anyone else, I would call, or probably raise, but not you," and mucks. Wow... not only did he make a good play based on me playing mediocre, but he was intelligent enough to discern between me and the other players (using and understanding PokerTracker etc). These are not your $25NL players of 2 years ago.So ask yourself what range of 2 hands do we beat here? Not only that, but our buddy smooth calls an all-in after you've shown strength and so has someone else. I would say that it's probably 50/50 if you are ahead or behind *IF* MP2 is a tremendous donkey. Other than that you are behind here at a $10 NL table, a $25 NL, a $50 NL .... and a $1000NL table.The moral of the story is this... if UTG+1 and MP2 are that big of donkeys (especially MP2) to get their money in here while being behind KKs, then you are best off waiting for a different situation in time to extract a few buy-ins. Specifically, a situation where you have much more control.

Your point is well taken. There are competant players at every level, however as I read most of these posts regarding hands 100NL and lower, I find alot of linear thinking opponents, who see their hand first, and act, before giving consideration to previous actions of opponents.

[goheels 0]

The skill level of the players at this level obviously varies greatly. The biggest factor I look at with no reads (in a situation like this) is stack size. Now when I look at MP2 I see someone who bought in for the max and has increased his stack a small amount. this doesn't always hold true, but it USUALLY means he's a bit of a grinder and probably at least decent and maybe even pretty good. MP2 would really never be re-raising with a draw when someone is all-in behind him so he either had to have a Q, 55, or 88 here. I had two kings, so putting him on KQ was tough. AQ was a definite possibility, and I thought that was a pretty likely holding. I felt like I had narrowed his range down to three hands and I only beat one of them, so... Hero folds.Uncalled bets: $7 returned to MP2.Turn: :8 ($44, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $44)River: :7 ($44, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $44)Results:Final pot: $44UTG+1 showed A Q MP2 showed 5 5 Please don't think this is a brag post about a laydown I made, I'm still not really sure it was correct, but that was my thought process on the hand.Thoughts?

[MasterLJ 0]

The skill level of the players at this level obviously varies greatly. The biggest factor I look at with no reads (in a situation like this) is stack size. Now when I look at MP2 I see someone who bought in for the max and has increased his stack a small amount. this doesn't always hold true, but it USUALLY means he's a bit of a grinder and probably at least decent and maybe even pretty good. MP2 would really never be re-raising with a draw when someone is all-in behind him so he either had to have a Q, 55, or 88 here. I had two kings, so putting him on KQ was tough. AQ was a definite possibility, and I thought that was a pretty likely holding. I felt like I had narrowed his range down to three hands and I only beat one of them, so... Hero folds.Uncalled bets: $7 returned to MP2.Turn: :8 ($44, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $44)River: :7 ($44, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $44)Results:Final pot: $44UTG+1 showed A Q MP2 showed 5 5 Please don't think this is a brag post about a laydown I made, I'm still not really sure it was correct, but that was my thought process on the hand.Thoughts?

Not taken as a brag post as obviously it brought out some interesting discussion.Great fold, great hand, money saved. You should have included that read earlier on (as I think it's true too about player's re-buying), but it might have given it away.

[goheels 0]

TYTY. I thought this was actually one of the toughest hands I've played. There were several elements that made it very tricky and interesting. I really wish the AQ had just raised to begin with, this hand would have played a lot differently (and more profitably for me!!!).As far as not including the read...it's just a general guideline I use, not a specific read based on previous hands, that's why I didn't include it. I have found it to be very useful in the past though and maybe some of you guys will now. Something else I normally do is see how many other tables people around me are playing and what their stacks are there. If they're on 3 tables with max+ buy-ins on all of them you can generally assume they're better then your average micro idiot.

[caribstv 0]

Carib...To me it's defnitely a push or fold situation...my question really is which one is it?I addressed the PF raise, I guess 5 BBs doesn't get it done on Stars, that would have everyone on UB running for the hills screaming.

This is prob calls for a FOLD.... u just have too many poeple in there with you.I think someone as trips maybe 5's or 8's