15 replies to this topic

[jayistheman]

alright guysim a TAG NL playerthe elusive eagle.... anywayi know alot of y'all do well playing a very LAG style (aseem slowly steps foreward)im lookin for a good debate on this subject... wont outline it much here, cuz its best to have it evolve on its own...so... tell us all which one you are (or are closest to) and explain why... give any reasons why you chose to play this strat.i'll post my reasons in the morning cuz im dead tired

[Absolute]

im loose tighti like to play most hands and then fold them immediately

[akishore]

ok, so...online, i'm super-TAG. i'm possibly a rock when it comes to online NL, because i play microlimits and table image, etc. don't even matter.live, i play TAG if the game is aggressive and i'm playing with good/tricky players, but i play super-LAG if the game is passive and i'm playing weak/readable players.obviously the advantages of TAG play is that you're playing better hands than your opponent on average, so you expect to earn more simply by the cards. in NL, however, position is also very important, especially in tricky and aggressive games in which i play TAG, so i like playing TAG because i can wait for good position a lot of times. if i was playing LAG, i'd often be playing hands out of position, and that's the worst thing ever against good players.the advantage of LAG play is to remain unreadable, but more importantly, to get lots of action on your big hands. this only works for me under the right conditions: the game has to be passive (except for me), and the players have to be fairly readable, and weak.for example, some nights ago i was playing four-handed NL like so:me in seat 1.fish in seat 2, very LP-TP, basically a calling station (new to poker).by-the-book in seat 3, very TA-TP, fairly readable in the sense that he slowplayed his good hands and bet strong on his weak ones.rock in seat 4, only played top 10 hands, and despite being super TA-LA, he married whatever hand he had and lacked the ability to lay it down unless the board was super-dangerous.this is a prime example of a game in which i dominated by playing LAG. i busted seat 3 (he then rebought), almost busted seat 2, and busted seat 4. it was just an extremely profitable situation. let me go into a little more detail:against seat 2 (LP-TP), i stole many pots uncontested, i mean many many pots. when he called me, i went by my read--was he on a draw or does he have a hand? if the former, i was relentless and stole a bigger pot from him, if the latter, i immediately backed off and check-folded to a minimum bet (exxageration). since he was tight post-flop, he only called with draws and made hands, so obviously, LAG was a very profitable style to play against him.against seat 3 (TA-TP), i stole many pots through mind games and got lots of actions on my big hands. he was the one player at the table who's had a real history with me (my style has dominated his play for a long time, but fortunately, he doesn't track his play as i do, so he doesn't know how much money i've taken off him), so after a certain point in the game, he starts to think i'm bluffing every hand. anytime he gets involved in a pot with me, he usually has at least one big card or some kind of hand. psot-flop, it is very easy to play against him, so my advantage comes from being unreadable. when the board comes 3-3-Q, i can make him fold because he knows i'll play any 3, but when the board comes 3-3-Q, i can also make him call an all-in with his AQ when i have 3-4. that probably doesn't make sense, but reading him well is key... if i sense he hit the flop, i'll have the goods before i get aggressive, but if i sense it missed him, i'll represent the 3.against seat 4 (TA-LA), it was just too easy to bust him. he had been watching me play 80% of my hands and taking down 80% of the uncontested pots, so he thought he could just wait for a big hand to bust me... but i know that. so when he raised his first hand after 50 hands, i called with 87s knowing that i can bust him if i hit hard, and when i flopped the nut straight (flop was 4-5-6 rainbow), i check-raised him and he hesitated before pushing in (thinking i was trying to steal the pot from him on a draw, etc.) and i called and cracked his kings.so this is how LAG play is very profitable for me given the right circumstances. now let me explain how TAG play is profitable for me given different circumstances:me in seat 1.solid (TA-TA) player in seat 2.maniac (LA-LA) but smart and strong player (very tricky, makes solid reads) in seat 3.by-the-book (TA-TP) in seat 4.rock (TA-LA) in seat 5 who marries his cards.given this table, position was very important to me. i also didn't want to get involved in too many pots with two of these players, especially seat 2. against him, i would fear getting outplayed or losing a big hand when i know how LAGs play (you'll only get action if you're beat if he knows you're a TAG player).so playing TAG was very profitable because i could wait for big hands or wait for good position in pots with weak players, etc. that doesn't mean that i only played top 16 hands... it means that i picked my spots, and cards weren't the only things that mattered. if i was on the button with 87s in a raised pot by seat 2, i wouldn't be afraid to play, but if i had 4-2 in the BB in a raised pot by seat 2, i would fold because i don't have position, and i don't have the cards to get involved with a tricky, unreadable player.so, in conclusion, both styles are profitable, given the right circumstances. i think the key in NL games is psychology... you really have to understand your opponents, and a lot of my hands boil down to mind games more than the cards, and this is why either style is good depending on your opponents. if you have weak opponents who only think on one level, you can play LAG and mess with their minds because they'll never know if you have the nuts or are on a stone cold bluff, but if you're against strong opponents who think on multiple levels, you can play TAG and still mess with their minds once in a while when you have advantages like position.so, both styles are great.good post,aseemp.s. one important thing i forgot to mention is blind structure. i will never play LAG with anything less than 50 big blinds. between 50-100 big blinds, i'll tend to play tighter than LAG but a little looser than TAG (this is actually the optimal condition for me to be tricky and to change gears often), and with 100+ big blinds, i can really play LAG because the blind structure allows a lot of post-flop play.

[JaysonWeber]

I guess I'm a true Tag (Takes a look at PokerTracker to make sure)Yup... But Sometimes I may seem more aggresive, which I think is very +EV, Attacking on the button and loosening up bigtime in late position.Playing a Lag game is fun, and I think that in person, I am inbetween, I'd say Button to Button +2 in a fullring game I'm opening up the hands I play big time, If I look down and find 4-6 Diamonds, I'm in business! Ofcourse this all depends on what people ahead of me have done, but even if theres an EP raise I could still be playing this hand.I believe switching gears, nightly, or even within the same session helps as well, the minute they see you win with 4-6 Diamonds, they wont respect your Raises, so at that point you should go back to becoming TAG.

[jayistheman]

Ok... as i mentioned above, im a TAG player.... in a full ring gamein the examples you gave, aseem, i might play the same style.... shorthanded is a different animal, and position is everything.don't get me wrong, i like to switch gears alot (especially in tournaments... relative to chip stack, blinds, bubble...) give me alot of chips, and i'll see a flop with any kind of suited connectors and Ax suited in a tournament.cash games are my bread and butter, though. I used to employ a LAG style in my days at pokerroom because the games were often tight/passive, and i could attack constantly.... i would dance around in pots until i got a feel for whether they were "going away" or not... if i sensed weakenss, i was all over it.... if i sensed strength, i would try to crack it as cheaply as possible.I have left pokerroom to play other sites lately, mainly prima NL 100 and NL 200. I have found these games to be very loose/passive, so i have really tightened up. i have found that these L/P players often times counterfeit my position, because they never bet (its obviously still very important, but i don't let it play as much of a roll in my hand selection). before i continue, does this sound like a good strategy?ok... now back on track...when i started at prima, i tried my LAG style, and found it to be very difficult to play... occasionally, i was calling raises with 78s and the like, but often times i hit the flop, and got 0 payment.... often, i would miss and be unable to take the pot from the calling stations.my strategy now is to wait for high connectors, high suited cards, and all pairs... i hit my flops, and let them draw against me for a premium price. i am playing hands with high card value alot more cautiously because they will limp/ call with anything... i am putting more stock in pairs and Ax suited, because i can often make my hand and have them draw to inferior hands against me... this can be very profitable. i have found that if they show any strength, then i have a hard time playing the pot.... unless i hit the flop, that is... but we all know how often that happens :? i really feel that the TAG style is for me. i enjoy myself more when playing because i feel that it is alot less psychologically draining. i can put in an 8 hour session playing like this easily.... LAG play can really tire you quickly. i have had too many occasions where i played too long and dulled my senses.....definately not a good mindset for LAG play.most of my decisions are cut and dried, as i am playing stronger starting hands. I am able to play longer and more successfully... given the right table conditions, i still go back to the old strat.... ya gotta adapt to survive.my table image, even at these stakes, seems to go unnoticed though... i'm not complaining. live games around here are often shorthanded, so i play a loose style... but thats necessary in shorthanded play. push hard with position, and avoid traps is the name of the game. its quite fun.... i love this kind of play. but when i'm grinding online, its work.... it pays for books and pizza.

[jayistheman]

tight agressive or loose agressive

[BilliardsBoy]

Ok, that's what I figured. Thanx.

[JaysonWeber]

*Sigh* Carrying on...I think Aseem and I would probobly not be a good mix at the table... it might be similar to WRTO and I sitting down at a micro-limit FCP table.. ( raise, raise, raise, cappppp ) I am going to go through what I thought on each section that caught my eye...

Akishore said:

live, i play TAG if the game is aggressive and i'm playing with good/tricky players, but i play super-LAG if the game is passive and i'm playing weak/readable players.

This is precisely the correct way to go about things, in my home game, we've been playing together for what will be 3 years this May. Needless to say we know each other pretty well, so that would be the trickiest game I play in, and because of this, I will not play "too fancy" as playing fancy poker can get you absolutely crushed. I find I have to change my image as fast as I've established one at the table.Other tables however, with booksmart players are huge ponds for us to dance around in with whatever bait (hole cards) we'd like. I, like Aseem, have been known to call large bets pre-flop in these games simply to see the flop and play the men accordingly.

Akishore said:

so playing TAG was very profitable because i could wait for big hands or wait for good position in pots with weak players, etc. that doesn't mean that i only played top 16 hands... it means that i picked my spots, and cards weren't the only things that mattered. if i was on the button with 87s in a raised pot by seat 2, i wouldn't be afraid to play, but if i had 4-2 in the BB in a raised pot by seat 2, i would fold because i don't have position, and i don't have the cards to get involved with a tricky, unreadable player.

Talking about the game you are in, I often find myself in a VERY similar game (sure we dont know each other? lol), Its rather scary how he described that table, its almost the same as the regular homegame I always talk about.This quote, speaking about position shouldn't go unnoticed at all. Playing with the button should be everyone's favorite hand.. until ofcourse you get it again! You get to do whatever you want... not only that, but you get to do it AFTER everyone else already did what they plan to do. Inherent Advantage? I just love playing those low 4:diamond: - 6:diamond: Type hands from the button, especially with a lot of players in! If its a limit game I'll raise every once in a while (in a home game ofcourse, online... its TAG baby and if anyone wants to say that I'm not a TAG... Forget it save it for a PM and I'll send you my PT stats allright?).

Akishore said:

p.s. one important thing i forgot to mention is blind structure. i will never play LAG with anything less than 50 big blinds. between 50-100 big blinds, i'll tend to play tighter than LAG but a little looser than TAG (this is actually the optimal condition for me to be tricky and to change gears often), and with 100+ big blinds, i can really play LAG because the blind structure allows a lot of post-flop play.

This is important, and the reason I hate most SnGo's. You can't bloody make moves like a true loose-aggresive player (A PROFITABLE LAG, not some LAP used to be a HUGE misconception in Cardplayer forums about this.)Having a lot of chips in a tournament style game is lovely, but don't get carried away in the real early stages. The middle stages are the best ones, where the chips are going to matter for a while, and people are a bit more concerned, that is when you want to turn it into High-Gear.Tournament Gears if You have a healthy stack.Early Stages - TAI prefer to play Rock solid from almost every position at the table other than Button, I just like to act last in these large tournament formats, so only be aggresive when you think you can buy the button or You've got a case hand.Middle Stages - LAGThis is only if you have the chip-stack to support it, becomming LAP in this stage is great, especially once the players begin watching for the bubble. This is the stage where most idiots are gone, or easy to recognize and you can play accordingly with them. Late Stages - TAG ---> LAG ---> TAGChanging gears, I'm not exactly sure how I'd play at a final table, at this point its all dependent on the rest of the table I believe.

[jayistheman]

thanx for cleanin it up JWas far as most tournaments go, i like to play LAG around the bubble as well... but thats a given.the final table is a different animal....i've found that at final tables, the blinds become less taxing on the higher stacks as the shorts go away.... LAG style is really possible in these stages...

[Suited_Up]

Hey guys.... I saw you were gonna post this last night, but just got to it today... very good stuff. I don't have a ton to offer, as my style is still in development basically, but it's good to read. Just makes me wish I had more chances to play more live games. Ring or Tourney.

[KDawgCometh]

I play so much Limit nowadays it takes me awhile to get my NL boots back on. I'm probably a SLAA live as I like to play a wide variety of hands and I'll riase with many of them and I'll make ling shot calls if I know I'll get paid off. I've gotten tighter recently, but I am the type of player to CR bluff you and I like to stya very unpredictable but disciplined. I feel that most of the people i play with can't really get a read on me other than, he never has it. I feel that to successful in NL you need to play more hands then you would in limit, but only like 5-8% more, IMO. suited conectors are probably my worst carry over from NL to limit when I've played a bunch of NL live(none of the people I play with will play anything else ), they are big money winners in NL. So I don't know what I'd really classify myself

[akishore]

KDawgCometh said:

I'm probably a SLAA live as I like to play a wide variety of hands and I'll riase with many of them and I'll make long shot calls if I know I'll get paid off. I've gotten tighter recently, but I am the type of player to CR bluff you and I like to stya very unpredictable but disciplined. I feel that most of the people i play with can't really get a read on me other than, he never has it.

wow, that's... me...except for the "I've gotten tighter recently" part. :-) and i strongly agree, suited connectors (and i have to agree with daniel, even 10-6 can be a suited connector) are big moneymakers in NL.aseem

[allinbluff35]

I play strangely that's about it

[wrto4556]

I'm an eagle.

[Smasharoo]

I'm an eagle.OF course. Everyone is.

[Absolute]

lol