16 replies to this topic

[ChrisRichey]

No real reads, built up a big stack with a decent run of cards. What do you think?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP1 (t7712)
MP2 (t12903)
CO (t15706)
Button (t21042)
Hero (t42147)
BB (t23636)
UTG (t5684)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, T.
1 fold, MP1 calls t800, MP2 calls t800, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t3100) Q, 7, K (4 players)
Hero bets t2000, BB folds, MP1 raises to t6862, MP2 raises to t12053, Hero calls t10053.

[mikeysong]

I like I like I like, the hand plays itself

you can make an argument for raising big pf from sb to steal the hand but regardless, hope u hit ur flush or straight.

[copernicus]

I like I like I like, the hand plays itself

you can make an argument for raising big pf from sb to steal the hand but regardless, hope u hit ur flush or straight.

Prty? 8 ball?

[simo_8ball]

The argument for raising preflop is very weak. This is a $4.40 game, so noone is folding to anything but a huge raise. Definitely a bad play.

I think this is fairly standard as played. Monster draw in a 3 way allin pot is good. all you really don't want is to see a higher flush draw. Great chance to build a monster stack. Any range you put them on will almost certainly make you the favourite.

You could analyse the flop bet a little, but I don't think you would get anywhere productive.

Have I missed anything out?

[copernicus]

The argument for raising preflop is very weak. This is a $4.40 game, so noone is folding to anything but a huge raise. Definitely a bad play.

I think this is fairly standard as played. Monster draw in a 3 way allin pot is good. all you really don't want is to see a higher flush draw. Great chance to build a monster stack. Any range you put them on will almost certainly make you the favourite.

You could analyse the flop bet a little, but I don't think you would get anywhere productive.

Have I missed anything out?

I was railing this hand and my first reaction was the same. I had some additional thoughts later though, in white, in case there are more responses, about reading their hands:

This may be results oriented thinking, but when the hands turned over I went doh!

That there is a monster draw out is painfully obvious, yet two players are ready to commit a ton of chips. What do you put them (particularly the 2d caller) on?

Doesnt the presence of Ahxh become a major concern with the reraise?

[simo_8ball]

Ah, I was wondering why you hadn't replied properly. The fact is, AhXh is a possibility, and maybe a very likely one. If one guy has a made hand and the other has AhXh you are in trouble. The fact is though, MP1 could have KJ and MP2 could easily have KQ. Hell, K7 is a possibility.

I while ago I saw a hand where someone I know had 6h6x on a flop of 5h4h3h. There was a large bet and a large reraise in front of him. I was somewhat unsure of what to think. Analysing some figures with regards to hand ranges showed that even in a 3way pot the 66 had good equity (30%ish if I remember). I thought it could be tiny. This I feel is very relevant to this situation, and gives us a clear call in this instance.

In this situation, the only hand that is a problem is AhXh. Even giving a range of just every suited ace, KQ and 77 for both players, we are 28%.
The fact is, if they both turn over KQ/K7/77/etc. you have made a huge mistake.
One of them could have a lower flush draw or even another JT.


I think you have been blinded a little by the results. It makes it hard to think clearly. Against any realistic range you are in very good shape.

[Actuary]

even putting the word fold in a reply here is beyond gross.

*********

only discussable element to this hand is the flop bet.

[ChrisRichey]

If it was against just one opponent, then it's a very easy call. But the presence of the second all-in had me questioning how many of my outs were even good.

[Actuary]

If it was against just one opponent, then it's a very easy call. But the presence of the second all-in had me questioning how many of my outs were even good.

I'd say in a $4.40, plenty often enough.

For the odds you're getting

[simo_8ball]

The existence of a second player does not impact your odds too negatively. Yes, there are bad scenarios for you, but if you are against 2 made hands you can be up to 60% in a 3way pot. I think your overall equity drops by adding the third player, but not by too much.

This is a $4.40 - don't overthink things.

[copernicus]

The existence of a second player does not impact your odds too negatively. Yes, there are bad scenarios for you, but if you are against 2 made hands you can be up to 60% in a 3way pot. I think your overall equity drops by adding the third player, but not by too much.

This is a $4.40 - don't overthink things.

It depends on whether you think the addition of a second hand is more likely to be another made hand or another heart draw. If you are behind to one made hand...in fact dominated by a KJ, you are still a 55% favorite. If you add the Ah draw you drop to 21%.

I agree there may not be enough information on the hand to put either one solidly on the Ah draw, I think that may be more likely than adding a second made hand that feels strongly enough for the all ins.

If you weight the two at 50:50 you are down to a 2:1 dog, you dont lead the flop and things play pretty differently. Even if you give the Ah draw 25% weight you are down to 60:40 dog. Now you may lead at it or check...hard to say.

[simo_8ball]

It depends on whether you think the addition of a second hand is more likely to be another made hand or another heart draw. If you are behind to one made hand...in fact dominated by a KJ, you are still a 55% favorite. If you add the Ah draw you drop to 21%.

I agree there may not be enough information on the hand to put either one solidly on the Ah draw, I think that may be more likely than adding a second made hand that feels strongly enough for the all ins.

If you weight the two at 50:50 you are down to a 2:1 dog, you dont lead the flop and things play pretty differently. Even if you give the Ah draw 25% weight you are down to 60:40 dog. Now you may lead at it or check...hard to say.

Even giving a range of just every suited ace, KQ and 77 for both players, we are 28%.

We could start applying realistic ranges for both players, but I have no doubt that it would show a call.
MP1 pushes any king, a set, JT or any heart draw, plus maybe a few others. He might even go crazy with QX.
MP2 pushes any king, a set and possibly AhXh, plus maybe a few others.

Remember that they might not have AhXh. It could be a lower draw and KJ.

[copernicus]

Yes, but say you put yourself as high as 33%. You check the flop mp1 bets the pot and MP2 still pushes for 12k. Now theres 18 k in the pot and 12k to call. Thats an easy fold with out implied odds because of the short stacks.

Or mp1 pushes and MP2 repushes, now theres 22 in the pot with 12 to call...still short of the odds you need as a 2:1 dog but close. Youre one of the chip leaders. Do you allow yourself to be knocked down?

I dont know that there is a right answer, just that its not the no brainer that I thought when I first saw the flop.

[simo_8ball]

Yes, but if you check, MP1 and MP2 can have much wider ranges to bet/raise with. MP1 can bet a Q, any king, a set, any draw, etc. and MP2 can raise allin on any draw, any king, maybe QJ, a set, etc.

I really think if you analysed hand ranges (MP1 can have K8+ even) you should see that the ONLY problem is AhXh, compared to a pair of ranges which include many, many different combinations of lower draws and made hands.

AhQh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, Ah2h, Qh9h, Qh8h = 10 hands.

There are only 10 hands that you are afraid of.

KcQc,KcJc,...Kc7c = 6 hands
KsQs,KsJs...Ks7s = 6 hands
...
...
etc.

There are just SO many hands (and combinations of hands) that you are good against that I think this isn't marginal.

If you lose this hand, you are still either 1st or just 2nd in chips on the table. You aren't risking your tournament life for this.

[Actuary]

i like the lead to see if BB likes the flop.
Otherwise, I want to get as much money is as possible from the other two

[ChrisRichey]

Thank you guys as always for your opinions, here are the results:

MP1 had KTo
MP2 had Ah 8h

I still won the 180 though!

[simo_8ball]

Just to add a little to this, The existence of the large side pot makes this even easier as a call.
If MP1 has the nut flush draw, you are in great shape to take the side pot. It is only if MP2 has the nut flush draw that you are in trouble (and you are still 28% to take the sidepot against him). You are playing the $10k sidepot HU, and you have a good shot at it almost regardless of what you are up against.