9 replies to this topic

[akishore]

okay, this question is going to seem ridiculous to many of you. but i'm thoroughly confused and can't find a plausible explanation for my answer. i actually got this scenario off of some post in general poker (i think it was by jackbauer about three crazy pokerstars hands or something).scenario:NL ring game, you have KK, standard pre-flop stuff, let's say you get 2 or 3 callers. flop comes Axx, it's checked to you on the button. do you bet?my answer:of course you bet, what kind of ridiculous question is this???BUTsomeone (jack maybe) justified his check there by saying "if i bet, i'll only get called if i'm beaten. if i'm ahead, i'll call this hand down anyway."now, this seems logical, but all of my poker instincts are screaming at me that a bet is by far the correct move there. you raised pre-flop, so you have fold equity... you might have the best hand so you bet for value... you bet for visibility, to find out where you are... etc etc etc. i can go on listing reasons forever, but my problem is, i can't find a counterargument to that justification ("if i bet, i'll only get called if i'm beaten").i feel strongly that such a justification is flawed and wrong, but i can't put my finger on why it's wrong.any help?thanks,aseem

[allinbluff35]

if you raised preflop with KK and get 3 callers and the board comes AXX it really depends what the other board cards are I guess and what you know about your opponents. Just because there is an A on the board when you have KK doesn't always mean that someone has one. The could just be checking because the hit there set, called with A and a weak kicker, or are they could just be hoping it gets checked around because they have 77-1010. It's really how well you know your opponents and what hands they are willing to call your raises with.

[Swift_Psycho]

While it is true that you may only get called if you are beat (and by draws too though), it would be devastating to give a free card to 2 or 3 opponents if you are indeed ahead. I still like betting and seeing if everyone else folds. If you are called, then go ahead and slow down on the turn.Especially if you're at fairly low limits, the odds of someone having an ace aren't as great as one might expect. They could be holding something like Q-9 and have a gutshot draw on the flop that you're giving a free card to. Plus, a bet on the flop keeps you in control of the hand and you can then let the hand go comfortably if someone bets at you or raises you because you know for a fact that you are beat. You don't want to get suckered into calling a decent-sized bet later because you figure they are just bluffing you because you showed weakness on the flop.

[Vade]

You have to raise 6 or more BB with KK, and hope to get weak aces out.you have to bet into the ace.You have to fold to a raise.KK is an ace magnet, but this is the right way to play it I think.

[RISEorFall]

I think there are two things that could be happening here. Either everyone missed the flop or hit something like 2nd pair or a weak draw. Or they hit their ace and don't figure you for one. i say bet here and see what everyone does. If you get reraised or even called here you're probably up against an ace and should proceed with caution. Betting and getting raised isn't as bad as facing a bigger bet on the turn or river and having to figure out if they're slowplaying the ace. You also may drive out the bad draws and lower pairs, which may not be desirable in terms of maximizing your profit, but I am a big supporter of protecting your hand. Better to take down a smaller pot now than get sucked out on and lose a bigger pot later. Someone (for the life of me I can't remember who right now) said you make most of your money on other people's mistakes, not on your own fancy plays. Sure a trap or a bluff every now and then isn't bad, but most of your money comes from other's mistakes. This is not the place to trap, but I think rather a place to find out where you're at in the hand. Oh and i have a good thought for "the only hands that will call you are the hands that beat you." You might have someone with an Ace-little suited to fold if they think their kicker w/ the Ace is no good.

[akishore]

guys, i understand that betting out is the correct play... i hope you don't think i'm asking you to explain that. :-) i'm asking for counterarguments to the logic that "you'll only get called if you're beaten." i strongly feel that this is wrong, but i don't know WHY it's wrong. hell, is it right maybe, just unimportant? help me out.the only actual response i got to the question was this, and a good one:

RISEorFall said:

Oh and i have a good thought for "the only hands that will call you are the hands that beat you." You might have someone with an Ace-little suited to fold if they think their kicker w/ the Ace is no good.

thanks,aseem

[brando]

Just a thought, but you might get called down by a QQ or JJ as they may be thinking the same thing, "just b/c an A hit doesn't mean they have it".

[wrto4556]

brando said:

Just a thought, but you might get called down by a QQ or JJ as they may be thinking the same thing, "just b/c an A hit doesn't mean they have it".

Or draws.Bet, the tun isn't so automatic....really depends on the texture of the board.

[akishore]

ok, thanks guys, i don't feel so stupid anymore. i was really racking my mind trying to come up with a counterargument to that logic, but didn't realize that the most obvious ones were right there:1. you often WILL get called even when you're not beat (e.g. draws, second pairs, etc.)2. you often WON'T get called even when you're beat (e.g ace-rag).3. even if you're called when you're beat, at least you now know where you are in the hand.4. even if you don't get called when you're not beat, why slowplay only a pair? pick up the pot right there and then.thanks,aseem

[KramitDaToad]

akishore said:

ok, thanks guys, i don't feel so stupid anymore. i was really racking my mind trying to come up with a counterargument to that logic, but didn't realize that the most obvious ones were right there:1. you often WILL get called even when you're not beat (e.g. draws, second pairs, etc.)2. you often WON'T get called even when you're beat (e.g ace-rag).3. even if you're called when you're beat, at least you now know where you are in the hand.4. even if you don't get called when you're not beat, why slowplay only a pair? pick up the pot right there and then.thanks,aseem

Another aside, as pointed out by Doyle.Whenver there is an Ace on an unpaired board, there is always a straight draw possible.Goes along with 1 and 4Bet the flop