Limit V. No Limit Txhe

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

I have never played Limit poker. My style is very analytical. I am VERY disciplined. My ability to read is generally quite good. My memory is outstanding. I am more comfortable playing Tight than Loose, but can change up as required.Should I consider playing in some limit games, if only to round out my game?WHat about other games like Stud & Omaha - or chould I continue to refine my TxHE NL game as sort of a specialist?

[jonmarc 0]

I would try it out and see if you like it. I play a lot of limit, I prefer it over NL. But also I find the amount of bad beats to be more present in Limit. So if you cant afford to play higher to medium limits (8/16 or higher) I dont suggest playing it. Anything less is just show down poker or as my father calls it "never fold'em hold'em". You cant raise anyone out of a pot and they will fish to the river. However its still a fun game. Good Luck

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Anything less is just show down poker or as my father calls it "never fold'em hold'em". You cant raise anyone out of a pot and they will fish to the river.

You forgot to continue on about how awesome that is because of how easy it is to win money when your opponents refuse to fold their crap.

[jonmarc 0]

You forgot to continue on about how awesome that is because of how easy it is to win money when your opponents refuse to fold their crap.

Sometimes, and sometimes people get so lucky its mind boggeling.

[fiftytwo52 0]

Sometimes, and sometimes people get so lucky its mind boggeling.

So true. OP- i dont play much limit but it sounds like a modest person like who who plays tight and is disciplined would do good at limit- especially if your opponents never fold their cards. Definitely give it a try

[Zach6668 513]

The replies in this thread, with the exception of Swift Psycho, have been mind-numbingly stupid.I'm not going to get into why the more people call, the more you win.Search it.- Zach

[antistuff 0]

I have never played Limit poker. My style is very analytical. I am VERY disciplined. My ability to read is generally quite good. My memory is outstanding. I am more comfortable playing Tight than Loose, but can change up as required.Should I consider playing in some limit games, if only to round out my game?WHat about other games like Stud & Omaha - or chould I continue to refine my TxHE NL game as sort of a specialist?

Try both, see which you are better at. I would recomend learning how to play as many games a possible decently. Finding soft games seems to be a moving target.

[TheCorporation3 0]

So if you cant afford to play higher to medium limits (8/16 or higher) I dont suggest playing it. Anything less is just show down poker or as my father calls it "never fold'em hold'em". You cant raise anyone out of a pot and they will fish to the river. However its still a fun game. Good Luck

You sir, are a dummy. This is HOW you make many money playing poker. When people "fish" to the river and miss. You don't NEED to "raise anyone out of a pot" if you have the best hand...You WANT callers. People never seem to get this part of poker. I hear people saying, "You need to be playing atleast 8-16 so you don't get rivered, more people will fold," WTF!? I don't WANT ANYONE TO FOLD, EVER. Infact, if you play me, NEVER fold, just call, call call, like the other guys "fishing" and we will see who does better. When someone calls you with a lesser hand that is how you make $. When someone folds a lesser hand, you don't make money. If for every time you had an AK and floped an A and someone else "fishing" floped a gut shot straight or backdoor flush draw, and if everytime he called, you would be MAKING money in the long run, but if he folded everytime you would technically be losing money. So be careful on what you say, No Foldem Holdem is my favorite. That is how we make money, bad players making bad calls, not good players making good lay downs.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

The replies in this thread, with the exception of Swift Psycho, have been mind-numbingly stupid.I'm not going to get into why the more people call, the more you win.Search it.- Zach

Yours was one of the few replies I was hoping to read.

[TheCorporation3 0]

The replies in this thread, with the exception of Swift Psycho, have been mind-numbingly stupid.I'm not going to get into why the more people call, the more you win.Search it.- Zach

LMAO, Zach, how funny is that? We both read that 2nd guys post and thought, WTF? I actually had the time to write it all out and said, F it, I'll teach someone something today, maybe. LOL, So would you say I put what you were thinking and planning on saying, into good context sir?

[Zach6668 513]

Yours was one of the few replies I was hoping to read.

Alright, you made me feel bad. :blush:First of all.Don't listen to the guys who whine about there being more suckouts.Second of all.LHE <=> NLLHE requires far more skill than NL does.It's so hard to try and explain the reasoning here, but basically, postflop skill is a HUGE emphasis.Like, you are pushing very very minor edges. It's not like NL where you are getting it in with set over set, etc, or where you have a huge edge a lot of the time.In order to win at LHE, you have to be able to push every single edge you have. There is no such thing as "I'll wait for a better spot". If you are +EV, you need to exploit it.Having good reading skills will be very important for you in LHE. Putting opponents on an accurate range will help you determine your equity and pot odds, etc.Getting a great understanding of LHE will greatly help every other poker game you play.I'd recommend starting with Small Stakes Hold Em by Ed Miller and David Sklansky, and then moving on to Hold Em Poker for Advanced Players by Sklansky.I can't possibly cover the benefits of LHE in this post.If you have anymore questions, please do not hesitate to ask.- ZachPS - My first reply in this thread was not directed to you at all. The first reply demonstrated a severe lack of knowledge of statistics, probability, and pretty much every poker theory.EDIT - Just a note on the fact that everyone calls down. This will greatly increase your variance, as you will suffer more "bad beats", but you will win in the long run with donks calling down.

[Actuary 3]

you want them to fold once the pot gets a certain number of bets, depending on the outs they haveFor example:7 BB pot on turnYou want a flush draw to fold to your bet. (of couse they won't)RAC,learning to play limit well will improve your no limit gameas far as the quick psycolanalysis, I have no idea if you will be better/good at it

[jonmarc 0]

Well first of all let me bow down to all of your poker greatness.You obviously havent had people draw out on you as much as I have. Maybe Im unlucky or maybe you are very lucky. But I loose so much monkey being drawn out on that its not funny. Forgive me for not having as good as luck as you. Jack asses

[Zach6668 513]

Well first of all let me bow down to all of your poker greatness.You obviously havent had people draw out on you as much as I have. Maybe Im unlucky or maybe you are very lucky. But I loose so much monkey being drawn out on that its not funny. Forgive me for not having as good as luck as you. Jack asses

You are so special.I do suppose all those ups and downs have nothing to do with badbeats or anything...Blow me.More fun graphs:

[Actuary 3]

Well first of all let me bow down to all of your poker greatness.You obviously havent had people draw out on you as much as I have. Maybe Im unlucky or maybe you are very lucky. But I loose so much monkey being drawn out on that its not funny. Forgive me for not having as good as luck as you. Jack asses

you might have selective memorydo you track all your sessions/hands?have you played 50,000 or more hands of Limit?there is a lot of luck involved in the short run and long run for that matternothing wrong with being frustrated and not liking Limit; but you should not advise others against it unless you have a solid mathematical understanding.just say: I"m not good at Limit and don't understand why others play..

[jonmarc 0]

you might have selective memorydo you track all your sessions/hands?have you played 50,000 or more hands of Limit?there is a lot of luck involved in the short run and long run for that matternothing wrong with being frustrated and not liking Limit; but you should not advise others against it unless you have a solid mathematical understanding.just say: I"m not good at Limit and don't understand why others play..

Thank you for not being a jack ***. I get so tired of people and their superior attitudes. If Im wrong Im fine with that just don’t talk down to me. My bank roll has taken a substantial hit over the past few months. And it just seems to me that I take a bunch of runner runner beats. I know poker has its ups and downs and I’m currently going through a down. Until a couple months I had 4 consecutive winning months. My math is ok, but I need to learn more. I can admit this.

[Zach6668 513]

Thank you for not being a jack ***. I get so tired of people and their superior attitudes. If Im wrong Im fine with that just don’t talk down to me. My bank roll has taken a substantial hit over the past few months. And it just seems to me that I take a bunch of runner runner beats. I know poker has its ups and downs and I’m currently going through a down. Until a couple months I had 4 consecutive winning months. My math is ok, but I need to learn more. I can admit this.

My apologies.I'm just so sick of having to explain to people the same thing, although, I don't have to, so probably shouldn't have replied in the first place...Anyways.Understand this:Betting 1 BB into a guy drawing to 2 outs, and he calls:The EV of your bet is (+1 SB)(43/45) + (-1 SB)(2/45) = 41/45 or 0.9111 SB.My math is crude, and does not take into account implied odds, etc, but the point stands that, over the long run, each time you bet your stronger hands, they win, even if they seem to lose a lot.(Upon further analysis, I blow at math, and I know this takes nothing into account properly.. Actuary, get in here...)

[Actuary 3]

Betting 1 BB into a guy drawing to 2 outs, and he calls:The EV of your bet is (+1 SB)(43/45) + (-1 SB)(2/45) = 41/45 or 0.9111 SB.My math is crude, and does not take into account implied odds, etc, but the point stands that, over the long run, each time you bet your stronger hands, they win, even if they seem to lose a lot.(Upon further analysis, I blow at math, and I know this takes nothing into account properly.. Actuary, get in here...)

close enough to make the point, seems fine.even if he has 20 outs on the turn, you usually should bet for value.sometimes no one makes a mistake and you can't bet enough to force it. It's the nature of Limit; that does not mean it's unbeatable, epscially when you play against the ones that chase with bad odds. THen you make even more money when they call than when they fold.

[mikeysong 0]

I have never played Limit poker. My style is very analytical. I am VERY disciplined. My ability to read is generally quite good. My memory is outstanding. I am more comfortable playing Tight than Loose, but can change up as required.Should I consider playing in some limit games, if only to round out my game?WHat about other games like Stud & Omaha - or chould I continue to refine my TxHE NL game as sort of a specialist?

just try both forms and see which one is more fun for you, especially short-handed limit. If you find that you prefer to play tight, wait for big hands, and trap people with them rather than play marginal hands and try to determine if you have the best hand on flop, turn, and river, then stick w/NL

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Wow, loot at this......a thread of adults posting and treating each other like adults!Brings a tear to my eye.Thanks for the replies everyone.Zach - I took absolutely no offense at your first reply - I understood the target and intent.Thanks for taking the time for the insight. I'll get the Sklansky books.What too many people don't understand is that you WANT the Donks to call you down chasing their stinking gut-shot. Yeah they're gonna catch their 4 outer on the turn 1 out of 10 times, you just have to accept that , make them pay for the privilege, and recognize when you're beat.The problem I have with LHE is not having that extra "weapon" - however I don't use the big bet that often anyway. Perhaps it would be good practice if nothing else for me to play LHE. Sort of like sparring without being allowed to use your left jab - we used to do things like that in Karate.The "ease" of showdown is what sort of turned me off to LHE. In the initial analysys it seemed like coin-flip poker - but this discussion helps me understand better the requirement to control your own game - instead that of others. There really are times in NLHE where if I am on my game, I can make the other player act how I need them to act. These are the times when I really make my money. It seems like those opportunities are more limited in LHE - but that just means you have to control yourself.

[Zach6668 513]

Here's an email I received today from Full Tilt. I didn't read it all, but skimmed the first little bit, and figured it could be put to use in this thread:

From Limit to No-LimitUntil a few years ago, players interested in learning poker would start out by playing in fixed-limit games. Most casinos and card rooms only offered Limit Hold 'em or Limit Stud, so players had to get used to the dynamics of structured betting. But now, many players are jumping directly into No-Limit. There's nothing wrong with this approach, but lately, I've seen a lot of players at the Limit tables who are applying big-bet principles to fixed-limit games. They're making big mistakes that reflect their inexperience with limit betting.In No-Limit, the biggest mistake you can make is putting money in a pot when drawing dead or very slim. Usually, by the turn or river, you'll face large bets that threaten your entire stack, so calling on a second-best hand is a huge error. In Limit Hold 'em, however, the biggest mistake you can make is folding the best hand on the river. By the river in Limit Hold 'em, you're often getting odds of 9, 10, or 11 to 1 to make a call. Given these odds, it's often proper to call on the river with some very modest holdings, even if there's only a small chance that you can pick off a bluff and win the pot at showdown.For example, say you're playing in a short-handed Limit Hold 'em game and you raise on the button with As-7s. A very aggressive opponent in the big blind calls. The flop comes Jd-8d-7c, giving you bottom pair. The big blind checks, you bet, and are check-raised. On this board, there are a variety of straight draws and flush draws. An aggressive opponent could be raising on any number of hands, so you'd need to call this raise or even consider three-betting. If the turn brings a scary card, say the Td, you can fold, as there are very few hands you can now beat. However, if the turn is a blank, like the 2c, you're probably going to be in a position where you'd need to call your opponent down. Third pair isn't much, but it will win at showdown enough of the time to make the call worthwhile.In No-Limit, you'd probably want to fold if you were check-raised while holding bottom pair. It would cost too much to figure out whether or not you were ahead. But in Limit, your total liability in the hand is only two more big bets, making the call worthwhile. The other major error I see from No-Limit players who move to Limit is that they fail to play enough hands from the big blind. In a recent tip, Jennifer Harman discussed big blind play in Limit Hold 'em in some detail. She suggested playing a lot of hands from the big blind, including any two cards that can make a straight. Jennifer's an expert player, and you might be better off being a little more selective than she is. But still, you should be playing a lot more hands from the blinds in Limit than you would in No-Limit.Think of it in terms of odds. In a Limit game, you'll be getting 3.5 to 1 to call a single raise from the big blind (two small bets from the raiser, your big blind, and the small blind). Plus, in many games, you can count on the pre-flop raiser to follow up with a bet on the flop, whether he hit or not. That gives you odds of 4.5 to 1. If the raiser is an aggressive player in late position, you can't give him credit for much of hand to start with, so, even a hand like 5-6 off-suit is often good enough to play from the big blind.In No-Limit, you probably want to fold the same hand and wait for a better spot. But this is the type of adaptation you'll need to make if you want to master all forms of poker, including Limit and No-Limit. If you're moving from No-Limit poker to Limit, keep in mind that you're going to be calling opponents down more often and that you're going to want to play many more hands from the big blind.Richard Brodie

[pokerfan1080 0]

Great topic. Very interesting read.I'd like to add something here, please feel free to crush me if it's completely not applicable.I've had a bad run of SnG's over the last little while, so I decided to give some cash games a go for a change. WOW, what was I missing! I sat down at 4 $25NL tables and was up 6 buyins over a couple nights. Then it happened. All of a sudden, I started to run into bad beat after bad beat. So, what did I do? I continued to sit there and take bad beat after bad beat. Too many 2-outers to even mention. It was horrific to lose all 6 buyins I had won in a matter of a few hours.But, here's the thing, and the point of my post. Yes, I was experiencing some bad beats, but I didn't recognize that fact and failed to use good judgement to stop when I hadn't lost too much. What I've learned over this past weekend is having the dsicipline to recognize those tendencies is key to nipping the variance bug in the butt! I should have set some limits for myself as was mentioned in this thread:When to Sit UpSome great advice there. Advice I had read but did not learn from.The point is, our losses are not completely avoidable, but they can be managed with an action plan, good discipline and proper judgement.

[Actuary 3]

how does quiting for the night/session lower your variance?assuming you aren't palying tired.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Gambler's fallacy.Zach - thanks for posting the article.

[pokerfan1080 0]

how does quiting for the night/session lower your variance?assuming you aren't playing tired. (I fixed your typo for ya )

Now you got me thinking. Maybe I'm using the wrong term. Does variance include the maximum we reach at the table? If it does then it has nothing to do with it, lol, my bad.However, If we employ an action plan such as the one mentioned in the thread I posted (leaving a table if we reach a certain expectation, ie. at $25nl, once you reach 50 and then fall back top 40, it's time to quit, etc, etc) we can reduce our losses - loss a better term?I know for me, it would have saved me quite a bit last night if I would have used such an action plan! I was up, just over 2-buyins, and proceeded to lose that, and then some...... alot some!