Position

[Actuary 3]

I heard sometime ago before I paid any attention that Pos was most important preflop in BLANK and post flop in BLANK.What did I hear and why/I really forgot.now, it might be most important for the same game both pre and post, but if you had to put NL in one slot and limit in the other... do it!Pre: LimitPost: NLsounds right.Preflop:Limit: Wasting Bets in EP that you have to call 1 more for after a LP raise add up with marginal holdings. In LP you have a much better idea of you implieds odds potentiental post flop.NL: yeah, you waste bets in EP, but you get so much more from post flop play that a lower percentage would be wasted coming in with marginal hands too muchPost Flop:seems obvious.

[antistuff 0]

i like it doggy styleand i think you are right

[Actuary 3]

i like it doggy style

do you wear knee pads?

[antistuff 0]

do you wear knee pads?

i have a very fuzzy rug

[Zach6668 513]

[/hijack]I think you are right Actuary, but I have no mathematical basis for it.In NL you can eliminate positional disadvantages with taking the lead pf 3-betting, etc, and I find that donking is actually quite effective in NL.In LHE, preflop is key because that is where a LOT of mistakes are made in EP.

[mk 11]

it's the opposite, imo. preflop decisions don't matter nearly as much in LHE; maximizing value postflop is how you make money in that game. and one can negate positional disadvantage postflop in NL by shoving, check-raising all-in, etc.

[Actuary 3]

assuming deep stack NL (100 BB and above), the implied odds negate most preflop decisions, no? Making any two just about playable.

[Royal_Tour 0]

it's the opposite, imo. preflop decisions don't matter nearly as much in LHE; maximizing value postflop is how you make money in that game. and one can negate positional disadvantage postflop in NL by shoving, check-raising all-in, etc.

I think Pos is for both.. NL and LHE and pre and postLHE - post flop like MK said, and you want to raise after post flop when the value is increased more BB's.in NL - having postion is key because you are always in a position to steal pots, or to save yourself the most amount of chips by folding to earlier agressors battling each other.

[Zach6668 513]

it's the opposite, imo. preflop decisions don't matter nearly as much in LHE; maximizing value postflop is how you make money in that game. and one can negate positional disadvantage postflop in NL by shoving, check-raising all-in, etc.

preflop is incredibly huge in lhe.nl you can play any two if the stacks are deep enough.

[Actuary 3]

I thought this was a common quote, but I just can't recall the order. But it's certainly Limit for one and NL for the other.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I thought this was a common quote, but I just can't recall the order. But it's certainly Limit for one and NL for the other.

I recall the thread where we had this argument, but I don't recall the conclusions that were made. I think Smash had some good input. Oh, and I think there are some recent articles in CP that deal with this topic. I'll try to dig them up.

[Sluggo 0]

nl you can play any two if the stacks are deep enough.

Wrong.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

preflop is incredibly huge in lhe.nl you can play any two if the stacks are deep enough.

Wrong.

What if we're playing the new game that I just invented? I call it “Infinite No Limit.” Here's how it works:Every player's stack is infinite but all bets must be finite. Otherwise, all normal rules of NL apply (so there's no going "all in," but you can bet something arbitrarily high like Graham's Number or something). The victor at the end of a session has the highest net profit, obviously.So, if we're playing Infinite No Limit, Sluggo, would you play any two?I enjoy impossible hypotheticals!

[Zach6668 513]

Wrong.

You really fail to contribute anything.

[Sluggo 0]

I contribute the truth. Just not the reasoning behind it.

Every player's stack is infinite but all bets must be finite. Otherwise, all normal rules of NL apply (so there's no going "all in," but you can bet something arbitrarily high like Graham's Number or something). The victor at the end of a session has the highest net profit, obviously.So, if we're playing Infinite No Limit, Sluggo, would you play any two?I enjoy impossible hypotheticals!

No, I would not play any two (assuming all players are relatively skilled).Also, the example would more closely ape reality if there were different degrees of winningness proportional to the amount won. If not, then the strategy for playing NLHE would be significantly different.

[Actuary 3]

Wrong.

for all intents and purposes, you lose much less playing "any two" preflop in NL than in Limit, assuming a solid post flop game.in NL you stand to recoup more of those lost preflop limps when you hit a hand

[Sluggo 0]

Yes, especially in position.

[Zach6668 513]

Ok, sluggo, I know where you are coming from.When I said that, I forgot the point of the thread was the importance of position, but I was just saying that to argue mk's statement saying that LHE was less crucial preflop.Actuary prety much summed up the point I clearly didn't make :PAlso, I never assume any of my opponents are the least bit skilled, which is why, if the stacks were deep enough, I think you probably could play any two OOP, but that's just theoretical nonsense.- Zach

[Actuary 3]

So Sluggo, you agree with Pre: Limit and Post: NL?

[LongLiveYorke 38]

So Sluggo, you agree with Pre: Limit and Post: NL?

I agree with this, as opposed to the opposite.

[BuffDan 0]

(so there's no going "all in," but you can bet something arbitrarily high like Graham's Number or something).

I enjoyed this.

[Sluggo 0]

So Sluggo, you agree with Pre: Limit and Post: NL?

Yes.

[fckthis 0]

Just going to add my opinion, because...well I want to.LHE seems to me, a preflop game. Thus, when you start with better preflop hands, and play better preflop poker, you will be usually a winning player.NLHE seems to be a postflop game, where sometimes, its a race to see who stack off their opponent first. Because implied odds are more of a factor in NLHE, hands that are unplayable in EP LHE, can be played in NLHE, depending on circumstances.

[mk 11]

preflop is incredibly huge in lhe.nl you can play any two if the stacks are deep enough.

I don't think so. Neither do Jen Harman or Richard Brodie.

The other major error I see from No-Limit players who move to Limit is that they fail to play enough hands from the big blind. In a recent tip, Jennifer Harman discussed big blind play in Limit Hold 'em in some detail. She suggested playing a lot of hands from the big blind, including any two cards that can make a straight. Jennifer's an expert player, and you might be better off being a little more selective than she is. But still, you should be playing a lot more hands from the blinds in Limit than you would in No-Limit. Think of it in terms of odds. In a Limit game, you'll be getting 3.5 to 1 to call a single raise from the big blind (two small bets from the raiser, your big blind, and the small blind). Plus, in many games, you can count on the pre-flop raiser to follow up with a bet on the flop, whether he hit or not. That gives you odds of 4.5 to 1. If the raiser is an aggressive player in late position, you can't give him credit for much of hand to start with, so, even a hand like 5-6 off-suit is often good enough to play from the big blind. In No-Limit, you probably want to fold the same hand and wait for a better spot. But this is the type of adaptation you'll need to make if you want to master all forms of poker, including Limit and No-Limit. If you're moving from No-Limit poker to Limit, keep in mind that you're going to be calling opponents down more often and that you're going to want to play many more hands from the big blind.

[Actuary 3]

mk,isn't that directed at BB play only?I don't see how if you're allocating the importance of pos pre and post to NL and LHE, how you cant' say Pre: LHE, Post: NL