19 replies to this topic

[Vegas King]

Many many players over value AK in the games I play. I sincerely hate this hand unless I hit a BIG flop. With poker these days, there are usually 4-6 players in to see the flop in our 5-10 and 10-20 games.This flop is golden.A A xThese flops are great, when not re-raised preflop.A (with any pair)A K xOther than that what flops do you like?Do you like A 7 4 even with a rainbow. If you were the only raiser preflop and someone bets into you what do you do? With 4-6 players did someone flop 2 pair? That is a good possibility. Many newbies will play any Ace x. If you raise and they reraise you MUST fold (unless they are too aggressive). What about K 10 6 rainbow. Same scenario.If there is a straight draw or flush draw, you are sucking wind and will not be able to force anyone out. I have seen many players lose bundles when they overplay A K. It is just not that strong of a Post Flop hand unless you hit it very hard in today's limit games. Any thoughts?

[JL]

Even better, I love people that call down to the river with AK when neither of them hit the flop

[onthebutton]

It's a tough hand to play. To me, I like when K-rag-rag comes out, since it likely gives me top pair, best kicker. I say this because I'm going to raise 3xBB pre-flop, and try to drive out anyone holding only a K-x. Of course, I'd prefer A-A-K. You're totally right, when A-x-x comes out, you almost have to assume that someone has two pair since so many players seem to play any ace, especially if they come out firing. Even a pre-flop raise won't drive some of these out. Without the flop hitting you, you have to assume that you are behind at least some of the other hands at the table.

[Munky]

AK is a good hand preflop... PRE FLOP!!!!!!!If you miss the flop and there's heavy betting and raising... and you have no draws or anything other than A high... Fold... let it go. Same thing when I raise with small suited connecters.

[jayboogie]

AK get's owned in low limit hold'em games, you'd think it would hold up pretty good when a A or K hits the board, but damn near everytime somebody is holding A rag or K rag and hit's their 2 pair. Be careful when somebody raises you with a flop like this, because likely if they're a bad player, they would have played this hand and hit their 2 pair when they raise.

[Karis13]

I think AK would be a great hand to limp with if there are not that many ppl. in the hand. If you hit your A and are in early position you can chk-raise someone and noone will ever put you on AK since most people raise with it preflop. But if you completely miss the flop or the board looks horrible (ex. 7,8,9 and already 3 bets to you) you can easily get away from the hand since it is very possible someone has J-10 or 2 pair. Just a thought.

[Chip_and_a_Chair]

The point about watching bad players' reraises is a good one. Many a bad player has saved me money when I have A K and Ace rags hit the flop by raising my bet or pushing all-in immediately, rather than advertise weakness and try to sucker more out of me on the turn or river. Many times, rather than leave me wondering whether I've just been duped, they flash their A 3 or A 6 to show me that they'd made two pair. The truly bad players will almost always broadcast when they have you beat BEFORE you go to the trouble of playing it to the river.

[JaysonWeber]

This thread has been moved to Poker Strategy, Thanks guys.

[diggitron1]

I have the Wilson Turbo limit hold em software. One thing I've noticed is that when I'm playing solid players AK holds up pretty well. But just for the fun of it I set up a low limit game with super loose competitors (usually between 4-8 opponents to the flop) and played 5000 hands. With this limited test number I found that AK (results for both suited and unsuited combined) only held up around 44 percent of the time (Wilson keeps great records). Mike Caro talks about this in one of his articles, about how the more people who call you, the more trouble you could be in with any hand, much less a hand that isn't already made, pre flop.This little experiment has made me a little more wary of AK if I'm in loose company. I still raise pre flop, but I'm not so determined to see it through if I feel I'm out flopped. This may lead to me laying down a few winners, but my theory is that it's saving me money.Feel free to prove me wrong.

[LeeDanger]

I agree AK is overrated preflop in cash games. I'm going to also say that way worse hands that people don't realize are pocket pairs. If there are consistently more than three people in a pot, you're not going to win many hands with pairs under 88. I guess this is why hands such as JJ have gotten the term fishhooks.

[jayboogie]

I think AK offsuit is extremely overrated in a low limit hold'em game, now AK suited is a much different story. AK suited is a monster in a low limit hold'em game, you don't get it deault to you very much, but it's a very profitable hand. For one thing, you can win your hand in many ways with this hand. Either by hitting a pair, drawing to a flush, nut straight. especially against bad players who will play any 2 suited cards, you will take a monster pot if you both hit flushes. Ak offsuit on the other needs a lot of help, it doesn't hold up well against a lot of players unless of course you hit 2 pair. When you only hit 1 of A or K, you can be sure, you will be called by anyone holding middle pair or top pair and weak kicker and somebody will usually outdraw you on the river. The point is play it aggressively on the flop to try and draw people out, but be wary if another rag comes on the turn and don't get into a raising war. Pocket pairs are by far overrated, just because they look nice in the hole doesn't mean they win many pots. especially when you hold pocket 8's or lower in a loose limit game. Even if you hit your set, you will often get rivered by a straight or flush. For this reason, I don't really play pocket's sometimes, I will if I have good position, but not out of position.I've noticed in loose games, typically the bad players will raise with any pocket pairs, but just call with AK. This is just an observation I've made. Many times I would put a player on a pretty good solid hand since the pre-flop raising was made to 3 bets or capped and they turn over pocket 5's. Bad players have a hard time folding pocket pairs, because they always hope to spike that set. The point is in loose games, never assume a player has a good hand when the pot is big, a lot of the times, these players just try to get lucky and hit a miracle flop. Don't be scared to jam that pot up and go over the top of these bad players. The strategy which works the best is going over the top of these bad players, this is the only way to induce a fold, otherwise you will get called and outdrawn on many occasions. The best way to play bad players is aggressive play and to keep re-raising, unless of course you get re-raised back which means they have a hand.

[CoranMoran]

Quote

Many many players over value AK in the games I play.  I sincerely hate this hand unless I hit a BIG flop.  With poker these days, there are usually 4-6 players in to see the flop in our 5-10 and 10-20 games.

Big Slick is a powerful hand that has a vulnerable side.The key to playing it is to minimize the field so you minimize the lucky draws.A pre-flop raise of about 3xBB is pretty standard. In most games, this will reduce the field to only a couple of other payers.However, if you are playing a loose game as you have suggested, there may still be 4-6 players that call the bet with marginal hands.And this could be dangerous for your AK. In games such as this, you need to adjust your pre-flop raises accordingly. Experiment with larger bets before the flop until you notice that the players are starting to fold those Ace-rags. Discover how much of a pre-flop raise it takes to minimize the field to only a couple of other players. Once you know this level, you can successfully protect your hand.And at this point, if your Ace or King hits on the flop, you can be much more confident that you have the best hand and you can be aggressive with your future bets.Of course, in games such as limit poker, you do not have the luxury of protecting your hand, so Big Slick is a much more precarious play.--cnm

[rog]

diggitron1 said:

With this limited test number I found that AK (results for both suited and unsuited combined) only held up around 44 percent of the time...This little experiment has made me a little more wary of AK if I'm in loose company.  

I'm just wondering what your average payout ends up being in this scenario. With loose players it should be pretty good, so I'd think you'd be making a ton of cash if they hold up 44% of the time. Probably a tough gamble for an all-in raise or call, but seems like value betting it cant harm in the long run.Rog

[dimseven]

Vegas King said:

Do you like A 7 4 even with a rainbow. If you were the only raiser preflop and someone bets into you what do you do? With 4-6 players did someone flop 2 pair? That is a good possibility.

Automatic raise.

Vegas King said:

What about K 10 6 rainbow. Same scenario.If there is a straight draw or flush draw, you are sucking wind and will not be able to force anyone out. I have seen many players lose bundles when they overplay A K. It is just not that strong of a Post Flop hand unless you hit it very hard in today's limit games. Any thoughts?

Raise.

[TheIceman05]

Am I the only person that likes playing this hand for the same reasons Vegas"king" hates it?When I'm playing in a loose game and I raise prelop and get 5 callers, I love when the flop is A 4 9... Sometimes somebody flops two pair. But just as often, I'm getting steady action to the river from A5. I don't get it. Don't play like a sack of shit. AK is one of my most profitable hands according to pokertracker, right behind AA, KK, QQ and 94s. Yeah, I dunno about that last one, but Iceman kills bitches from the blinds with 94s.

[akishore]

TheIceman05 said:

Am I the only person that likes playing this hand for the same reasons Vegas"king" hates it?When I'm playing in a loose game and I raise prelop and get 5 callers, I love when the flop is A 4 9... Sometimes somebody flops two pair. But just as often, I'm getting steady action to the river from A5. I don't get it. Don't play like a sack of shit. AK is one of my most profitable hands according to pokertracker, right behind AA, KK, QQ and 94s. Yeah, I dunno about that last one, but Iceman kills bitches from the blinds with 94s.

amen, brother.except for the last part.and people, jeez, this is irritating. just because AK holds up "only" 44% of the time against 4 - 8 opponents doesn't mean you're not making money. you're making a SHIT LOAD of money if you're getting paid between 4-to-1 to 8-to-1 when you're wining more than 1.5-to-1.AK is awesome, stop complaining. aseem

[foldnrun]

jayboogie said:

AK get's owned in low limit hold'em games, you'd think it would hold up pretty good when a A or K hits the board, but damn near everytime somebody is holding A rag or K rag and hit's their 2 pair. Be careful when somebody raises you with a flop like this, because likely if they're a bad player, they would have played this hand and hit their 2 pair when they raise.

thats precisely what the problem is with AK in limit games. its even worse when you know its a loose player, the flop can be A, 9, 6 with two hearts or something, and those loose beginners holding A, 4 with no hearts are betting into you because they hit an ace, not even two pair. i know in the long run i will be paid off and come out on top, but it still drives me nuts.

[Mattnxtc]

foldnrun said:

jayboogie said:

AK get's owned in low limit hold'em games, you'd think it would hold up pretty good when a A or K hits the board, but damn near everytime somebody is holding A rag or K rag and hit's their 2 pair. Be careful when somebody raises you with a flop like this, because likely if they're a bad player, they would have played this hand and hit their 2 pair when they raise.

thats precisely what the problem is with AK in limit games. its even worse when you know its a loose player, the flop can be A, 9, 6 with two hearts or something, and those loose beginners holding A, 4 with no hearts are betting into you because they hit an ace, not even two pair. i know in the long run i will be paid off and come out on top, but it still drives me nuts.

and the problem with that is what? continue raising him and only slow down if the 3rd heart hits...it sounds like ur playing scared poker...even if he has a heart..make him pay to chase it

[Sundevils21]

akishore said:

TheIceman05 said:

Am I the only person that likes playing this hand for the same reasons Vegas"king" hates it?When I'm playing in a loose game and I raise prelop and get 5 callers, I love when the flop is A 4 9... Sometimes somebody flops two pair. But just as often, I'm getting steady action to the river from A5. I don't get it. Don't play like a sack of shit. AK is one of my most profitable hands according to pokertracker, right behind AA, KK, QQ and 94s. Yeah, I dunno about that last one, but Iceman kills bitches from the blinds with 94s.

amen, brother.except for the last part.and people, jeez, this is irritating. just because AK holds up "only" 44% of the time against 4 - 8 opponents doesn't mean you're not making money. you're making a censored LOAD of money if you're getting paid between 4-to-1 to 8-to-1 when you're wining more than 1.5-to-1.AK is awesome, stop complaining. aseem

[jayboogie]

I feel almost embarassed posting what I did. Of course, this was during a bad run and when for whatever reason struggling to beat a no fold'em game.AK is a strong hand, but your going to brick it most of the time on the flop, so playing it well is important.