Building A Br With Sng's Only

[Royal_Tour 0]

Pretty basic really,but if any of you pay any attention to my posts, you'd know i sorta took my roll out in the spring and stopped playing cash games.i was really focused on just playing MTT's for fun.I soon realised, after winning the FCP forum challenge, that i'm decent at SnG's.lately i've been playing the Poker Classic qualifiers, and have a ridiculous amount of 2nd's, a hand ful of 1st's which advance me, but then i thought.why am i not playing these for income?so the goal is the build myself up another decent BR like i had from playing SnG's.I'll keep you all posted. so far i'm off to a good start, and can contribute this thread to that fact 3 sng's. (this start was 1 @ 10.00 2@ 30.00) I'm going to focus on the 20.00 though2 wins1 2nd.goal is to play 97 more. I want to have this completed by November 1st.cheers

[throwemaway 0]

Pretty basic really,but if any of you pay any attention to my posts, you'd know i sorta took my roll out in the spring and stopped playing cash games.i was really focused on just playing MTT's for fun.I soon realised, after winning the FCP forum challenge, that i'm decent at SnG's.lately i've been playing the Poker Classic qualifiers, and have a ridiculous amount of 2nd's, a hand ful of 1st's which advance me, but then i thought.why am i not playing these for income?so the goal is the build myself up another decent BR like i had from playing SnG's.I'll keep you all posted. so far i'm off to a good start, and can contribute this thread to that fact 3 sng's. (this start was 1 @ 10.00 2@ 30.00) I'm going to focus on the 20.00 though2 wins1 2nd.goal is to play 97 more. I want to have this completed by November 1st.cheers

GL to you sir..Since you are going to be playing a fair amount of them, you should post some interesting hands in Tourney and here, since they get like 2 new topics a day..Or even a kind of diary of a sng you thought you played really well, where you post every hand you either gain or lose a decent amount of chips, and giving an short explanation of each..Some guys have done that w/ MTTs and I find it interesting to read, although time consuming to post...I need something to keep me busy at work!

[Royal_Tour 0]

GL to you sir..Since you are going to be playing a fair amount of them, you should post some interesting hands in Tourney and here, since they get like 2 new topics a day..Or even a kind of diary of a sng you thought you played really well, where you post every hand you either gain or lose a decent amount of chips, and giving an short explanation of each..Some guys have done that w/ MTTs and I find it interesting to read, although time consuming to post...I need something to keep me busy at work!

I actually planned to already but Phucking FCP wouldnt open the historyit said "not available, blah blah" anyone know why or have that happen before

[Actuary 3]

Royal,I've been playing them exclusively since March.Maybe 5 MTT"s and a couple 3-5 table SNG's.Mostly 6 Man, about 3:1 6 to 10 Man.Anyway, I find the 10 Man around the $20 buy in to be nitty.We're 6 handed at 100/200, Ave Stack: 3300.8 handed at 50/100, etc.Not like the ole days.that's on Party thoughThe 6 Man allow more hands per level.keep it up, nice start!

[Royal_Tour 0]

Royal,I've been playing them exclusively since March.Maybe 5 MTT"s and a couple 3-5 table SNG's.Mostly 6 Man, about 3:1 6 to 10 Man.Anyway, I find the 10 Man around the $20 buy in to be nitty.We're 6 handed at 100/200, Ave Stack: 3300.8 handed at 50/100, etc.Not like the ole days.that's on Party thoughThe 6 Man allow more hands per level.keep it up, nice start!

Thanks Brother,How many have u played since march? are u off cash games totally?

[Actuary 3]

Thanks Brother,How many have u played since march? are u off cash games totally?

for now I am.I had switched to limit exclusively circa Sep 05, after being a net loser at NL Cash/SnG's/Omaha/ etc. It appealed to me as a steady income generator with all kinds of *neat* math applications. Oh, and less risky. But alas, it got dull and I was ready for a change. I don't play for any decent stakes anyway. Figured without much more study and effort my Limit win rate was bound to leveloff/go down as others improved. * Dull is the wrong word. Better to just say I could consume my life trying to analyze the game and was at a point where that was not the best use of my timeI've played ~880 SnG's since restarting them in March. Read HoH2, coupled with more experience overall since the last time I played them. modest success.10 Man ITM: 39%6 Man ITM: 42%ROI ~ 13% for bothIf you run the numbers, it becomes quite clear that I do not get 1st enough!

[iggymcfly 0]

Yeah, my firsts are too low too. I've got almost one and a half times as many seconds as firsts. I was going to make some big long post in the tourney strat forum the other day going through the whole HU section of a SnG to try to get some help with my HU game, and I got through about 25 hands before I accidentally deleted 2/3 of it. I was so pissed off that I just gave up on the whole thing.

[j2k99 0]

actually, its all i play. sngs from $5, 10. i used these sngs to build my bankroll. then i started playing some 5, 10, 20 and 30 dollar mtt and actually had a good run a few weeks ago. however, my intention of playing poker is not to turn pro; its purely entertainment to me. the money i won in the those mtt have since been withdrawn, but left a few hundred. since that run, i've now hit a wall; can't win the races or coin flips and even get rivered to be busted out of the tourneys. i'm back to playing 5 dollar sngs either full or sh. i don't mind grinding out about an hour or so to net $19.50. it actually adds if i keep placing in the money.for me, the problem with a bigger br than what i'm used to is i get too aggressive in the mtt tourneys. i start playing hands that i would normally fold cuz i know if i get busted, i just try again. anyways, for me personally, ABC poker is my comfort zone and so are the low sng tables.

[Actuary 3]

Yeah, my firsts are too low too. I've got almost one and a half times as many seconds as firsts.

But aren't you one that argues for playing for 1st?who is that ?1.5 more... wow.I"m 45/55. 1st to 2nds( on a 5 - 1sts streak in my last 5 6Man Tournies w00t w00t! )

[iggymcfly 0]

Well, I'm certainly not playing for third. Here's my stats since I started playing $77-$215. Total tournaments played: 288Places received:1st: 322nd: 463rd: 224th: 175th: 206th: 187th: 288th: 419th: 3810th: 26ITM: 34.72%ROI: 9.75%So you see, my overall strategy of busting out early or building a big stack and getting to the end works, as I almost never finish 3rd through 6th. It's just that my HU play's been killing me. A couple things I noticed that I've been working on are that I need to reraise more PF when I'm in the BB, because people lay down a lot of hands that they raise with, and since you can't be pushed off your hand once you're all-in, you lose less equity when someone has a hand that you would on just an initial raise.My other problem is that I tend to stick with hands too much post-flop. I think stuff like, "OK, I've got middle pair and we're HU with relatively short stacks. I've got to go with it" instead of "This guy's playing tight; he's not gonna bluff me here. I need to fold". The other day, I folded top pair HU for the first time in a while, and I was quite proud of myself. My opponent showed an overpair, but I ended up losing the SnG anyway.One more thing is that I think maybe I should be incorporating limping on the button more. My general strategy is to raise or fold most of the time, and then limp once every 20 hands or so with crap, representing a big pair so I can steal. That works fine if the blinds are high, but when we get HU at the 200/400 level on Party (which happens fairly often), I think I need to start limping close to 1/3 of my hands, so I don't have to fold or overcommit myself so much.

[TheCorporation3 0]

I don't know why but I always thought that sng's were for people who couldn't cut it in the cash games, Maybe Im wrong, but lets say you buy in to the $22 sng on party 10 man, and you get a 1st. You only pockted $78, and that is for first. Second only gets you $38 and third is a measly $18. Doesn't that suck? LOL, seriously, get good at limit cash games and you can make way more. And cashing in these things isn't the easiest, there are many times when you can run bad. At a 3-6 level, playing 3 tables with 75 hands/hour(225hands/hour total) making 1.8BB/100 hands would be $24.30 an hour. Not bad. That would mean that you are getting BETTER than a third place finish, every hour. And 1.8BB/100 hands is just running ok. When you're running good, you can double it :)P.S. Yes I know about running bad, and variance, 1.8BB is considered with variance, thats why I said running "ok."

[Actuary 3]

Corp,Royal plays cash games as well.Your example though was quite silly$22 SnG can easily be pllayed with a $600 roll3-6 should not be played with less than $1800.

[TheCorporation3 0]

Corp,Royal plays cash games as well.Your example though was quite silly$22 SnG can easily be pllayed with a $600 roll3-6 should not be played with less than $1800.

Yeah, I thought that, but the rake is just so terrible in the sngs. I just thought that sng's were for poor people who sucked at poker, lol.

[Actuary 3]

Yeah, I thought that, but the rake is just so terrible in the sngs. I just thought that sng's were for poor people who sucked at poker, lol.

they have $500 buy in SnG'sthey require a differnt skillbut yeah, the upside potential is lower for strong playersI play them exclusivesly now for fun and lower variance cash.

[TheCorporation3 0]

they have $500 buy in SnG'sthey require a differnt skillbut yeah, the upside potential is lower for strong playersI play them exclusivesly now for fun and lower variance cash.

Yeah, I know they have the $500 sng's, but if you had a roll to support that then you DEFINTELY should be playing a big cash game, like 30-60 maybe, or something. But yeah, my point still stands, SNGS are MOSTLY for poor idiots who suck at poor. NOT ALL, I am sure you and the OP know what youre doing and you are there to exploit the other poor donkeys, but most SNG's are there for the poor donkeys of poker.P.S. YES, I used to be a poor donkey like 85% of the sng players out there, and yes I used to donate. Now, I dominate the cash games.

[ChrisRichey 1]

Yeah, I know they have the $500 sng's, but if you had a roll to support that then you DEFINTELY should be playing a big cash game, like 30-60 maybe, or something. But yeah, my point still stands, SNGS are MOSTLY for poor idiots who suck at poor. NOT ALL, I am sure you and the OP know what youre doing and you are there to exploit the other poor donkeys, but most SNG's are there for the poor donkeys of poker.P.S. YES, I used to be a poor donkey like 85% of the sng players out there, and yes I used to donate. Now, I dominate the cash games.

Exactly, which is why they can be easy money and used to build a br to play higher limits. Does suck when you run bad though

[Actuary 3]

SNGS are MOSTLY for poor idiots who suck at poor.

are you talking about e people who make money playing these?I don't disagree that Cash games take more "pure poker" skils and offer more upside (unless you are a machine and 16 table SnG'ssome folks like me, play poker for fun and not promarily as income and SnG's are les stressful and lwer varianceI used to play 2/4 Limit and had a solid win rate.I'm sure I"ll go back to them

[TheCorporation3 0]

Exactly, which is why they can be easy money and used to build a br to play higher limits. Does suck when you run bad though

But see, this is my problem with SNG's. I almost always get my money in with the best hand and get outdraw on, very sickly. Like AA vs 66 oR AK vs AJ, or KK vs 77. I know it happens to everyone, but when that happens in a cash game I just keep playing. I am not OUT because of some donkey call where he gets lucky. In a cash game, the money ALL comes back to me. But in an sng I could sit there and waste a good 30-40min and get a 4th place and want to kill someone LOL. CASH GAMES FTMFW!

are you talking about e people who make money playing these?

No, not at all, like I said, Im sure people like you and the OP are winning players at SNG's, but you are losing money in the long run by NOT playing the cash games. Like you said, the cash games are more prof. in the long run. I know there are plenty of machine e-grinders out there that can whoop up on sng's, but Im just saying that if they learned how to kill the cash games they would probably make more. And if a player is good enough to win at sng's then I am also sure he could adopt a winning strategy in cash games. So basically I'm just saying that sng's are for poor donkeys, UNLESS you are successful and good at them. In which case you should probaby STILL be playing cash games instead.

[Abbaddabba 0]

some folks like me, play poker for fun and not promarily as income and SnG's are les stressful and lwer variance

How are they lower variance.They concentrate the results into large payments for the first 3 places rather than gradually paying all a fraction.As for how much there is to win - i dont think that there's a big difference between SNGs and cash games. Im also not sure how to draw an equivalency between stakes. What buyin has comparable ROR to 2/4LHE? Or similarly, what stakes has a comparable ROR to $20 sngs? You'd have to first come up with equivalent winrates to calculate that... and i have no idea how you'd go about doing that.

[Actuary 3]

How are they lower variance.

guess, I don't know.Seems like it to me.

[Teavis 0]

Well, I'm certainly not playing for third. Here's my stats since I started playing $77-$215. Total tournaments played: 288Places received:1st: 322nd: 463rd: 224th: 175th: 206th: 187th: 288th: 419th: 3810th: 26ITM: 34.72%ROI: 9.75%So you see, my overall strategy of busting out early or building a big stack and getting to the end works, as I almost never finish 3rd through 6th. It's just that my HU play's been killing me.

This is just your own strategy. I am a better short handed tournament player than full table, and so I usually try to survive to 4 or 5 handed, then bust some skulls. Remember, any money is better than no money. And with increasing blinds...getting to say 4500 by risking a bust early seems less productive than playing safe, and winning a couple hands late to get to that same 4500. I think if you focus on improving your shorthanded play, your ROI will go up, because you will be able to sneak wins as well as finish 2nd and 3rd more often (with some 4ths and 5ths too).

[Actuary 3]

busting early does save you 20-45 minutes though.increasing your $/hr. which is the most important stat.I tend to hardly ever finish early and do play to cash and thus get plenty of 3rds in 6 Man and 4-6th in 10 man.But my question has always been, how much more likely are you to cash/place first by taking chances early, vs the risk.

[BWToth 0]

I don't agree with what corporation was saying with regard to losing with his AA v. 66 in a SNG. IF you get all your money in with AA and someone is calling you with 66 and you lose with that you lose a whole buy-in v. just the cost of the entry to the SNG. And in a SNG you can join another instantly just like reloading in a cash came.Seems like your logic is flawed, and I was offended (not really, but yes) that SNGs are "for poor donkeys who suck at poker" comment....you really gave no evidence to back up the claim and you seem generally pretty ignorant, regardless of whether or not you are "crushing" the cash games you play in.

[TheCorporation3 0]

I don't agree with what corporation was saying with regard to losing with his AA v. 66 in a SNG. IF you get all your money in with AA and someone is calling you with 66 and you lose with that you lose a whole buy-in v. just the cost of the entry to the SNG. And in a SNG you can join another instantly just like reloading in a cash came.Seems like your logic is flawed, and I was offended (not really, but yes) that SNGs are "for poor donkeys who suck at poker" comment....you really gave no evidence to back up the claim and you seem generally pretty ignorant, regardless of whether or not you are "crushing" the cash games you play in.

Well, most people that play the SNG's ARE poor dumb donkeys that have no roll or money management skills, and they usually are trying to win it just to make a roll. I didn't say all, I said most. Maybe you aren't one of these poor donkeys, or maybe you are. I'm guessing you like the SNG's, and what I was saying about playing a SNG is that it's a waste of time to ME because I can get the money in good and get busted out. All because of one stupid suckout. And yes, I have played a decent amount of SNG's.And just because of that ONE bad beat, after batting down to 4 or 5 handed I get nothing, and I lose the buy in. I'd rather be sitting in the cash game with these donkeys so that I could CONSTANTLY punish them for making foolish calls and/or suckouts. If they win a pot off me like that fine, but I'm taking it all back in a few minutes, or hours if it has to be. I just stopped liking the idea of taking a bad beat and not winnin **** for 45minutes of work when I couldve been playing a cash game and making something.

[Jordan 1]

Well, most people that play the SNG's ARE poor dumb donkeys that have no roll or money management skills, and they usually are trying to win it just to make a roll. I didn't say all, I said most. Maybe you aren't one of these poor donkeys, or maybe you are. I'm guessing you like the SNG's, and what I was saying about playing a SNG is that it's a waste of time to ME because I can get the money in good and get busted out. All because of one stupid suckout. And yes, I have played a decent amount of SNG's.And just because of that ONE bad beat, after batting down to 4 or 5 handed I get nothing, and I lose the buy in. I'd rather be sitting in the cash game with these donkeys so that I could CONSTANTLY punish them for making foolish calls and/or suckouts. If they win a pot off me like that fine, but I'm taking it all back in a few minutes, or hours if it has to be. I just stopped liking the idea of taking a bad beat and not winnin **** for 45minutes of work when I couldve been playing a cash game and making something.

Do you multi-table cash games? Have you ever lost? You don't always make money. I know you know this.If people are playing SNG as their main means of poker income, I guarentee you they aren't playing 1 at a time. Probably 3 to 4, and more if they can do so optimally.- Jordan