20 replies to this topic

[Wily]

This is the hand that broke me out of the $75,000 guaranteed tournament on FTP on Sunday, right before the money. I don't think there was too much I could've done about it, so I'm fairly happy with how I did. Before the bubble on a large online MTT, you're sitting on about 6000 chips (5000 is the average) in the SB. You're dealt 5 5 . Everyone folds to you, and you call the 200 chip BB. The BB is a loose, large stacked fella who has you covered at about 10,000 chips, and seems to have huge swings in chip size as he plays many hands. He raises to 700, and you decide to call.Flop comes down 5 K Q . Presto! you think! You decide to check to the aggressor, and let him hang himself. Sure enough, he bets 800 into the pot. You decide to smooth call him, and check raise all in on the turn no matter what happens. This possibly was your fatal error in this hand, by not raising him all in on the flop, but that can't be changed. You're reading him for KJ or AK at best - an overset is of course possibly, but if that's true then that's just life. The turn is J . You check to him, and he pushes all of his virtual chips into the center. You call, thinking about the Vegas and the bleeping Mirage...He turns over A K . Great! Aren't you guaranteed to win? But ... the river is 10 .You've finished in 44th place, the window pops up instantly, and you feel a bit like Matt Damon in the beginning of Rounders, except you were ahead for the entire hand. Thoughts?

[screech]

I seem to encounter a similar problem time and time again in sit n go's. It seems that whenever I flop a set, there is always a flush or a straight draw on the board. If it's a flush or a high straight draw, I'll usually bet about 2/3s of the pot or reraise to about the size of the pot to try and take the hand right there, or let my opponents make a mistake and call. If they call, and outdraw me, that's fine, because their making mistakes that will send their money to me in the long run. If a low straight draw is on the board, I usually play it by how the preflop was played. If there were raises PF, and few players saw the flop, I would probably slow play. If there were a few limpers, or the BB or SB did not have to pay that much to see the flop, I'm probably going to lead out and make a large bet to try and win the pot there. I may be playing to conservatively, but if I allow other players to see a cheap next card, and a scare card comes, I have a very difficult time laying down my set, and will usually lose all my chips if someone hits their draw. On the other hand, when I hit a set, and get no callers after the flop due to my aggressive bet, I usually feel like I should have made more money off the hand.That being said, I think there are valid arguements for either pushing after the flop on the aggressive player you were up against, or waiting to trap him on the turn. Since he has so many chips, if he hit that flop (which is likely) he probably would have called your all in on the flop. However, if he missed, you gave him a chance to bluff at it on the turn.You were unlucky that he hit made a runner-runner straight, but the times that he doesn't should more than pay you off. The only hand I that should worry you on the flop for giving a free card would be J-10. But I don't know many players that would play that hand so aggresively.As I said before, this is a situation I frequently encounter and have difficulty with. I would love to hear how other more experienced players react to this situation.

[holman3rd]

Wily said:

This is the hand that broke me out of the $75,000 guaranteed tournament on FTP on Sunday, right before the money. I don't think there was too much I could've done about it, so I'm fairly happy with how I did. Before the bubble on a large online MTT, you're sitting on about 6000 chips (5000 is the average) in the SB. You're dealt 5 5 . Everyone folds to you, and you call the 200 chip BB. The BB is a loose, large stacked fella who has you covered at about 10,000 chips, and seems to have huge swings in chip size as he plays many hands. He raises to 700, and you decide to call.Flop comes down 5 K Q . Presto! you think! You decide to check to the aggressor, and let him hang himself. Sure enough, he bets 800 into the pot. You decide to smooth call him, and check raise all in on the turn no matter what happens. This possibly was your fatal error in this hand, by not raising him all in on the flop, but that can't be changed. You're reading him for KJ or AK at best - an overset is of course possibly, but if that's true then that's just life. The turn is J . You check to him, and he pushes all of his virtual chips into the center. You call, thinking about the Vegas and the bleeping Mirage...He turns over A K . Great! Aren't you guaranteed to win? But ... the river is 10 .You've finished in 44th place, the window pops up instantly, and you feel a bit like Matt Damon in the beginning of Rounders, except you were ahead for the entire hand. Thoughts?

Raise preflop and play fast on the flop.

[jayistheman]

raise pre flop...u got outdrawn. plain and simple

[Suited_Up]

holman3rd said:

Raise preflop and play fast on the flop.

It's sure easy to say that now that you know what happens.

[holman3rd]

Suited_Up said:

holman3rd said:

Raise preflop and play fast on the flop.

It's sure easy to say that now that you know what happens.

What are you talking about? He has the BB heads-up preflop, so you raise with a pocket pair.With that flop, the set is strong, but vulnerable. I lead with a pot-sized bet to knock him off any pair or draw. It is likely that the opponent would stick around anyway, given that he had TPTK.If I were guilty of results-oriented commentary, i would have said..."Fold that crap preflop"Geez, do I really need to explain in detail what I meant by raise preflop and play fast on the flop?

[Suited_Up]

I'm not disagreeing with raising preflop, that would have been better.But to say play it fast on the flop isn't something you would say if you don't know what happens. He bet into him with a flop like that... I really don't see him on a drawing hand. If I knew he had TPTK, which is what it seems like... then I'd smooth call and try to get the most out of him. Maybe if you raise like you say, he'd push back, but you never know if he's got TP or MP. The board on the flop wasn't scary enough to play the set fast I don't think. After the turn is when it gets scary, and that's exactly where he got his money in... although it was calling it. But it's just bad luck on this one. Played it fine.

[holman3rd]

Suited_Up said:

I'm not disagreeing with raising preflop, that would have been better.But to say play it fast on the flop isn't something you would say if you don't know what happens.  He bet into him with a flop like that... I really don't see him on a drawing hand.  If I knew he had TPTK, which is what it seems like... then I'd smooth call and try to get the most out of him.  Maybe if you raise like you say, he'd push back, but you never know if he's got TP or MP.  The board on the flop wasn't scary enough to play the set fast I don't think.  After the turn is when it gets scary, and that's exactly where he got his money in... although it was calling it.  But it's just bad luck on this one.  Played it fine.

I'm not sure why I'm drawing this accusation from you. I've been an advocate on this forum for people to not post results in their initial hand history.FWIW, I did not put the opponent on AK as I read through the post. The fact that he checked pre-flop tells me nothing. On a flop like that, he's either 1) caught a pair or 2 pair, 2) caught a good draw or 3) missed completely. Any other hands would have probably raised preflop.1 out of 3 scenarios are trouble for me (#2), so I lead out on the flop. You might argue that 2 out of three are not trouble, so why not slow play? Because if he missed completely, I'm not likely to get any more chips out of him, so I might as well take the pot down now. HOWEVER, I do like to mix up my game. So, I would occassionally slowplay here by checking the flop. But, if he bet into me, I'd re-raise him all-in. He's either 1) caught a piece, 2) semi-bluffing on a draw, or 3) bluffing. If it's #2, I want to knock him off the draw. If it's #3, again, my chances of getting more money out of him aren't too good, so might as well take it down now. As you can see, my advice to play fast cannot be results-oriented b/c it's based on my consideration that my opponent holding hands other than a pair.I do not believe our hero played this hand wrong. I just think that he tried to be tricky twice and got caught. I did advocate raising preflop, and I still do. But his smooth call into an aggressive BB is not a bad play, and something I would do (again, to mix up my game). I think his intention was too trap the BB (although I think trying to trap with a low pp is very dangerous). If he was trying to trap, it worked, as the BB bet into him on the flop. Now that the BB is in the trap, slam the door shut by pushing all-in.

[Wily]

Suited_Up said:

holman3rd said:

Raise preflop and play fast on the flop.

It's sure easy to say that now that you know what happens.

I'm a bit confused as to how raising preflop would've improved things for me. My intentions with 55 were to see a flop cheaply, especially with a very loose BB who could get trapped if I were to hit a set. Also, after I completed the SB, the BB did raise me 700, which I called. I think my biggest mistake this hand was not check-raising my opponent all in on the flop. But, as someone said, the flop was not dangerous looking, and I wouldn't expect him to call my all-in. I suppose that my biggest error here was getting greedy and wanting a double-up, and letting the hand go on to the turn. Although, knowing the results, he almost certainly would've called an all-in on the flop anyway. I guess against a random hand he could've raised me with, pushing in here wou;d've been correct. Thoughts?

[holman3rd]

Wily said:

Suited_Up said:

holman3rd said:

Raise preflop and play fast on the flop.

It's sure easy to say that now that you know what happens.

I'm a bit confused as to how raising preflop would've improved things for me. My intentions with 55 were to see a flop cheaply, especially with a very loose BB who could get trapped if I were to hit a set. Also, after I completed the SB, the BB did raise me 700, which I called. I think my biggest mistake this hand was not check-raising my opponent all in on the flop. But, as someone said, the flop was not dangerous looking, and I wouldn't expect him to call my all-in. I suppose that my biggest error here was getting greedy and wanting a double-up, and letting the hand go on to the turn. Although, knowing the results, he almost certainly would've called an all-in on the flop anyway. I guess against a random hand he could've raised me with, pushing in here wou;d've been correct. Thoughts?

Note--I'm not being results-oriented here!! 55 is a strong hand heads up, so you raise to knock the BB off crappy hands that can beat you. By just calling, you're giving him a free look at the flop. There are tons of hands that can be ahead of your low PP post-flop, so you want to get most of them out of there. Plus, by just calling, you have no idea what he has. Unless you are really good at reading this guy, smooth calling here just makes post-flop play way too difficult. In addition, if he's good at reading you, he could easily push you off 55 on a bluff post flop. Personally, I want to raise preflop most of the time to knock the BB off crap hands, and to narrow his possible holdings. This helps my post flop play.However, I did acknowledge that smooth calling to trap (as you did) is OK, and I'd do that occassionally, especially against an aggressive BB, like here. In this case, the trap worked b/c you flopped your set and got him to bet into you. As I said before, I would have them pushed all-in.

[jayistheman]

if you raise pre flop, then a continuation bet is often necessary regardless of the flop... if i raise with AA, and flop a set... i will bet regardless. i like to keep an agressive image.if you bet this flop, then he will either-smooth call-raiseif he smooth calls, then you can assume he's drawing... (or trapping with a bigger set, but you arent getting away from this hand either way)... so given this information, its correct to continue pushing hard to get him off any draw.. or to maximize payment.if he raises, then this is a good spot to move in, or make a big shutout reraise.either way results in playing your hand fast and agressively.

[jayistheman]

I'm a bit confused as to how raising preflop would've improved things for me.55 figures to be the best hand in a heads up pot.i like to raise when i have the best hand.it also gives you the lead in agression... remember, he will usually miss the flop, so your bet will often take it down there.p.s.i just ran an equity calculation on 55 vs a random hand~60% of the time, you will win the pot

[jayistheman]

by the way.. an interesting nugget of information.one time i was in a really loose/passive table...very similar to 99% of the tables you find online. it is often very hard to set traps in these games.i raise QQ 5x UTG, and get 4 callers!the flop came Q Q 7, and i bet it out the whole way.... 2 people called me down here.... i ended up winning a $169 pot simply because my continuation bet came across as a bluff.so i don't slowplay often, if ya cant tell.

[akishore]

holman-- his opponent DID raise pre-flop. read the post again.ok, i haven't actually read all the responses, mainly the last four or so. but here are my thoughts:wily played the hand perfectly.1. DON'T raise pre-flop heads-up with 55 in the SB against a loose/aggressive big blind who has you covered. that is the biggest recipe for busting in a tournament.2. BB raised more than the pot (pot was 400, he raised 500 on top), which means he's either on a steal or he has some decent paint and doesn't really want to see a flop.3. flop was almost perfect for a set, ALMOST. KQ5 rainbow is pretty strong, especially considering the pre-flop raise by the big blind. trapping is a good idea here. at best, you're giving JT an inexpensive turn, which might not even be the case considering you're against an aggressive player who would probably bet the pot with JT. against AK/AQ/etc you're looking at runner-runner to kill you, against KQ you're looking at 5 outs, and at best, you're against JT for 8 outs. against the JT, the results would have probably been the same had he pushed--the big blind would have probably called considering he was a loose/aggressive, so i think you should discount that situation. against almost any other hand, 55 is almost a deadlock on this board.i strongly think this was just an unlucky hand and that you played it fine.aseem

[akishore]

Wily said:

I'm a bit confused as to how raising preflop would've improved things for me.  My intentions with 55 were to see a flop cheaply, especially with a very loose BB who could get trapped if I were to hit a set.   Also, after I completed the SB, the BB did raise me 700, which I called.  I think my biggest mistake this hand was not check-raising my opponent all in on the flop.  But, as someone said, the flop was not dangerous looking, and I wouldn't expect him to call my all-in.  I suppose that my biggest error here was getting greedy and wanting a double-up, and letting the hand go on to the turn.  Although, knowing the results, he almost certainly would've called an all-in on the flop anyway.  I guess against a random hand he could've raised me with, pushing in here wou;d've been correct.  Thoughts?

NO!!! that's precisely the point! against a random hand and against a loose/aggressive opponent, pushing in is WRONG--this is the IDEAL situation to double up!!you played it fine yang.aseem

[jayistheman]

if he's on a steal, how is trapping gonna change anythingwhen someone smooth calls an overbet, even a fish will shut down his steal attempt

[holman3rd]

akishore said:

holman-- his opponent DID raise pre-flop. read the post again.ok, i haven't actually read all the responses, mainly the last four or so. but here are my thoughts:wily played the hand perfectly.1. DON'T raise pre-flop heads-up with 55 in the SB against a loose/aggressive big blind who has you covered. that is the biggest recipe for busting in a tournament.2. BB raised more than the pot (pot was 400, he raised 500 on top), which means he's either on a steal or he has some decent paint and doesn't really want to see a flop.3. flop was almost perfect for a set, ALMOST. KQ5 rainbow is pretty strong, especially considering the pre-flop raise by the big blind. trapping is a good idea here. at best, you're giving JT an inexpensive turn, which might not even be the case considering you're against an aggressive player who would probably bet the pot with JT. against AK/AQ/etc you're looking at runner-runner to kill you, against KQ you're looking at 5 outs, and at best, you're against JT for 8 outs. against the JT, the results would have probably been the same had he pushed--the big blind would have probably called considering he was a loose/aggressive, so i think you should discount that situation. against almost any other hand, 55 is almost a deadlock on this board.i strongly think this was just an unlucky hand and that you played it fine.aseem

my bad (as usual)...very tired today.i still say you can't limp here b/c you are very vulnerable post-flop when you let the BB see a flop for free. yes, the BB raised here, but we didn't know that when the action was on us.

[akishore]

jayistheman said:

if he's on a steal, how is trapping gonna change anythingwhen someone smooth calls an overbet, even a fish will shut down his steal attempt

i was a little confused by your post, but i think i get it. you're saying trapping is irrelevant because if the big blind is on a steal on the flop, we're not going to get anything out of him on the turn.point taken.however, i still think wily made the correct play in letting BB see a cheap turn, because relative to the board, he had a fairly safe holding, and it wouldn't hurt to let BB catch two pair or something similar.it's marginal, but i think i still hold by my thinking that he played the hand fine.aseem

[akishore]

holman3rd said:

my bad (as usual)...very tired today.i still say you can't limp here b/c you are very vulnerable post-flop when you let the BB see a flop for free. yes, the BB raised here, but we didn't know that when the action was on us.

if you limp, you allow yourself to see a cheaper flop. the reason is that the big blind is loose/aggressive... wily mentioned this. here is my logic:1. limp. big blind either checks (you get to see a cheap flop with a very marginal hand heads-up... at best you have a coinflip most likely) or raises you. if he raises, he can't raise too much, the pot is only 400, so it's essentially just calling a single raise pre-flop.2. raise. big blind will most likely call or re-raise. considering he's loose/aggressive and plays many hands, he will probably not fold, especially since your raise screams steal. in fact, because it screams steal, it invites a big re-raise, and you would really be forced to fold with such a marginal holding. at best, if he calls, you could have gotten a very similar result by just limping and calling a raise. at worst, you either have to call a LOT to see a flop or have to fold to a re-raise.in limit, raising with 55 is the obviously correct play, but in NL, stealing blinds is much trickier, and it's often wrong to do it with something like A2 or 55. just my thoughts.aseem

[jayistheman]

akishore said:

jayistheman said:

if he's on a steal, how is trapping gonna change anythingwhen someone smooth calls an overbet, even a fish will shut down his steal attempt

i was a little confused by your post, but i think i get it. you're saying trapping is irrelevant because if the big blind is on a steal on the flop, we're not going to get anything out of him on the turn.point taken.however, i still think wily made the correct play in letting BB see a cheap turn, because relative to the board, he had a fairly safe holding, and it wouldn't hurt to let BB catch two pair or something similar.it's marginal, but i think i still hold by my thinking that he played the hand fine.aseem

you got it... i was trying to hack SQL while writing this post cuz the boss was around :shock: i didnt have time to get wordy, so sorry about my wording