Race With Kj?

[timwakefield 69]

Final table of a $20 180 on Stars. I'd been playing aggressively when the table was short, but when we made final table I went card-dead and tightened up. I'd raised a couple pots and hadn't been called. Here I almost folded preflop , but the blinds were raising soon and I needed to win some chips. If I had a bigger stack I would probably just fold. No particular read on the shortstack, but he's offering me over 2/1PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)BB (t64446)Hero (t22360)MP1 (t16784)MP2 (t41351)CO (t48371)Button (t45737)SB (t30951)Preflop: Hero is UTG with , . Hero raises to t4800, MP1 raises to t16709, 5 folds,

[Teavis 0]

Final table of a $20 180 on Stars. I'd been playing aggressively when the table was short, but when we made final table I went card-dead and tightened up. I'd raised a couple pots and hadn't been called. Here I almost folded preflop , but the blinds were raising soon and I needed to win some chips. If I had a bigger stack I would probably just fold. No particular read on the shortstack, but he's offering me over 2/1PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)BB (t64446)Hero (t22360)MP1 (t16784)MP2 (t41351)CO (t48371)Button (t45737)SB (t30951)Preflop: Hero is UTG with , . Hero raises to t4800, MP1 raises to t16709, 5 folds,

I fold. After your fold you still have about 10 BBs, and if you find a better hand and double up off one of the 40-50k stacks you are back to around the average. At best you are a coin flip in this situation.KJ sure has been causing a lot of headaches lately....read my thread about KJ in a live tourney last night. Slightly different situation though.

[gobears 0]

I put villain on a range of 77+, AQ+ since he's the short stack and getting desperate which means that you are 33% to win and would need 2-1 on the call.So you're getting the right pot odds - if you fold here, then you are the short stack at the table. It's the right time to gamble so I would call

[copernicus 0]

Im folding or limping preflop, definitely not raising 3x BB UTG with KJ...probably limping. Since youre UTG the blinds going up "soon" most likely means you can get in at least your BB at the current level, maybe both. When you are going to be put into a push or fold situation you WANT the blinds to have gone up right after you pay them, it gives you the maximum time to collect the bigger blinds along with anyone who calls. (In fact in this situation it may very well pay to stall on your big or small blind to ensure they go up immediately after.

[Gallo 1]

Final table of a $20 180 on Stars. I'd been playing aggressively when the table was short, but when we made final table I went card-dead and tightened up. I'd raised a couple pots and hadn't been called. Here I almost folded preflop , but the blinds were raising soon and I needed to win some chips. If I had a bigger stack I would probably just fold. No particular read on the shortstack, but he's offering me over 2/1PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)BB (t64446)Hero (t22360)MP1 (t16784)MP2 (t41351)CO (t48371)Button (t45737)SB (t30951)Preflop: Hero is UTG with , . Hero raises to t4800, MP1 raises to t16709, 5 folds,

Ugh, I hate raising with this hand UTG, much rather raise with like 97s, this way I pretty much know that I have a shot becuase my cards may be live. I know the odds are there, but I hate KJ here. If you fold now and say you get squat in the BB or SB then you're left with like 15,000 or an M of 6. I may fold here. How many payout?Also I think this is something that I think many of us do...we've been card dead for who knows how long and then we finally see a glimmer of hope in 2 face cards and we want to play a dang hand. We raise then we get reraised, now what? Yeah, I hate KJ.

[gadjet 11]

I fold... you can still push with your remaining chips on another hand and have good fold equity...one thing to keep in mind is if you've just raised a couple hands and won uncontested you should be careful and expect someone to push back soon...

[timwakefield 69]

I may fold here. How many payout?

This was at the final table. 18 paid. I think Copernicus is right on track with the fold/limp. Also though I tend to agree with Bears that this is a call based on how I played it. Against anybody who had me covered I could fold, not because the odds are that much worse but because they would be on a higher range of hands. KJ may well be live against the shortstack.

[subsin 0]

think id fold, villian can have too many possiblites and have us beat, a-j, etc

[XXEddie 0]

think id fold, villian can have too many possiblites and have us beat, a-j, etc

what happend to you leaving?oh wellits obvious were beat, but villian could also have TT-77, AT, AQ and AK, with such a short stack it might be time to gambleas said before, you need about 2-1 to call

[subsin 0]

what happend to you leaving?oh wellits obvious were beat, but villian could also have TT-77, AT, AQ and AK, with such a short stack it might be time to gambleas said before, you need about 2-1 to call

said i was leaving online poker, not the forum , haha sorry to disappoint

[hblask 1]

Wow, opinions all over the board on this one, so I'll add my vote.My initial reaction was easy fold, but the more I think about it, I think it's time to gamble. I probably would've just folded pre-flop because KJ annoys me more than almost any hand, but that's just an irrational quirk. Once you've made the bet, you've got less than 1/5 the big stack. You are going to need some luck to go much further either way. Villain could have A-x, where x is anything, so you may not be far behind. But I think this hand is a good example of why I would just fold KJ from an early position. I think your first move needs to be all-in or fold.

[Actuary 3]

as played definite call.Here I thought Mark Seif knew how to play poker. I hear him all the time saying "gotta fold, at best he's racing" Well, if he's geting 2:1, Mark, it may be worth it.anyway..back to Tim.I certanily don't raise here from UTG with KJ.Limp if table that passive; but my norm is fold.

[ChrisRichey 1]

I think the fact that we're shortstacked here is more of a reason to fold pf than anything. If you have been raising the pot fairly often, someone is going to loosen their requirements for raising you. Being the shortstack, it is likely we are going to be pushed around by the bigger stacks, and KJ isn't a hand I am willing to commit the rest of my chips with at this point.7 handed UTG, it's a definite fold pf.

[iggymcfly 0]

If you want to play this without committing yourself PF, you'd probably be better off raising to 2.5x BB. The way you played it though, you absolutely have to call the raise. You have the right odds to call against everything except AA and KK, and you're racing a ton of hands.

[tskillz187 0]

If you want to play this without committing yourself PF, you'd probably be better off raising to 2.5x BB. The way you played it though, you absolutely have to call the raise. You have the right odds to call against everything except AA and KK, and you're racing a ton of hands.

QFT.This is how I get 10th or 9th a lot these days. PF mistake leading to me being in a situation I don't want to be in but math telling me to make the call.

[simo_8ball 1]

Please say someone understands how ugly the phrase 'open limping UTG with KJo' is. Especially with high blinds. Calling is easily the worst of the three options, unless it is a REALLY passive table and you have very good post flop skill. Hell, even then it makes it almost marginal. I probably fold this. Position is so important with high blinds. When you can't play a hand through and it is allin or fold on the flop any info you can get is useful.Ok, so you raised. It's a damn big raise given the situation. $4k is plenty. When the guy pushes you have to call. I'm not saying you should enjoy it, but you have to call.

[Actuary 3]

Please say someone understands how ugly the phrase 'open limping UTG with KJo' is. Especially with high blinds. Calling is easily the worst of the three options, unless it is a REALLY passive table and you have very good post flop skill. Hell, even then it makes it almost marginal.

yeah, I don't play many MTT"s much but the final tables I rail are never passive enough to limp in hereCopernicus planted that seed!as noted above, fold is norm for me

[copernicus 0]

yeah, I don't play many MTT"s much but the final tables I rail are never passive enough to limp in hereCopernicus planted that seed!as noted above, fold is norm for me

and a seed that will could bear fruit! Raising to 2.5 or 3x the BB is the worst option. Its not enough to drive a better hand out except a very weak Ace, and if you have to fold on the flop youve dumped 25% of your stack on air. Its only marginally more difficult to play after a limp than after a standard raise.Id prefer it if the table were 6 or 5 handed, even at 7 handed KJ isnt a horrible hand. EP limps usually get some respect, and if you dont get raised then 30% of the time youve probably got best hand on the flop. Get raised and you can bail out without much damage.I dont mind a fold either, because its not going to be an easy hand to play but i hate wasting KJ at less than a full table.

[simo_8ball 1]

Chris Ferguson: "I never get tired of saying it: If you're the first to enter the pot in a No-Limit Hold 'em game, never call. If you aren't prepared to raise, throw your hand away."Why do you feel raising is the worst option? Raising means you cut down on the players seeing the flop and gives you a good chance of winning the blinds.I don't think calling is an horrendous play, I just think it is very ugly. Folding is (imo) far better than limping.If you limp in and someone raises you will fold. However, if you open for 2.5xbb, a lot of those raising hands are not strong enough for a reraise, and may even fold. I think that the benefits you gain from the extra 1.5xbb raise far outweigh the immediate cost.

[copernicus 0]

Chris Ferguson: "I never get tired of saying it: If you're the first to enter the pot in a No-Limit Hold 'em game, never call. If you aren't prepared to raise, throw your hand away."Why do you feel raising is the worst option? Raising means you cut down on the players seeing the flop and gives you a good chance of winning the blinds.I don't think calling is an horrendous play, I just think it is very ugly. Folding is (imo) far better than limping.If you limp in and someone raises you will fold. However, if you open for 2.5xbb, a lot of those raising hands are not strong enough for a reraise, and may even fold. I think that the benefits you gain from the extra 1.5xbb raise far outweigh the immediate cost.

If you only raise to 2.5 bb, the BB is getting 2.66:1 odds and is very likely to call anyway. that means that anyone before him is likely getting even better odds, so I dont buy that you are chasing out a lot of hands with that raise. At a lot of tables a limp looks stronger than a weak raise.I would rather risk wasting 2/3 M than 1 2/3 M, because there is a good chance either one is wasted. Obviously the nature of the table could influence playing v folding, but Im never raising 2.5bb.

[simo_8ball 1]

Why would you never raise 2.5xbb? What would you class as a strong raise? Would you really raise to 4xBB utg with AQ?I just think that big raises preflop are, in the most part, unnecessary. In this situation, if the table is tight, you want to raise and try to win the blinds. If the table is loose, you should be folding. The only time I see limping as a 'good' play is if the table is very passive, you have very good post flop skill and your opponents are fairly poor. For me, this is the definition of a trouble play otherwise.2.5xbb is a standard raise for me preflop. The difference between 2.5xbb and 3xbb isn't much. In early position and high blinds even a min raise is often fine. This is explained far better by Chris Ferguson:"You always want to make your opponents' decisions as difficult as possible. In choosing the size of your raise, you want to give the big blind a tough decision between calling or folding if the rest of the table folds around to him.Raising from early position is to advertise a very strong hand - one that can beat the seven or more other players who still have to act. Since you are representing such strength, it doesn't take much of a raise to convince the big blind to fold. Also, since your hand is so strong, you actually don't mind a call from the big blind anyway. The real reason for a small raise is that you have so many players acting after you, any of whom might wake up with a monster and re-raise you.When you raise in late position, you're representing a hand that can beat the two or three remaining hands. This gives you a lot more freedom to raise with marginal hands, but your raise must be bigger or the big blind can call too easily. Another reason to raise more from late position is that you're trying to put pressure on the big blind to fold, not call and, more importantly, you don't have as many remaining opponents who can re-raise you.One of the most common mistakes in No-Limit Hold 'em is coming in for a raise that's too big. In early position, you want to keep your raises at about two times the big blind. With four to six players to act behind you when you're in middle position, raise to about two and a half big blinds, and raise to about three times the big blind from late position."

[timwakefield 69]

Okay I'll give the results because I think they're interesting - villain had AJ. Do you guys think this was a good play by him? Granted he is short but he is also facing an utg raise from the other short stack (me). I would say his play is marginal at best. I had been raising very few pots, and in general my range should be something like KQ+, 55+, and that's being pretty liberal.

[Actuary 3]

Okay I'll give the results because I think they're interesting - villain had AJ. Do you guys think this was a good play by him? Granted he is short but he is also facing an utg raise from the other short stack (me). I would say his play is marginal at best. I had been raising very few pots, and in general my range should be something like KQ+, 55+, and that's being pretty liberal.

automatic for megiven stacks, need to finish high to get big money, etc.*************************************Copernicus,nice paradox you present there.If raise to 5x the BB preflop from UTG, then UTG+1 should call because he'll have odds, since UTG+2 should call, given the MP1 would...etc. You assume other players call with bad odds and speculative hands since e BB will have odds? You think so math-guy like, as if others consider that stuff.

[copernicus 0]

"You always want to make your opponents' decisions as difficult as possible. In choosing the size of your raise, you want to give the big blind a tough decision between calling or folding if the rest of the table folds around to him."2.5x bb isnt putting him on a tough decision, its a clear call with any sort of playable hand. And all due respect to CF, when making their decision difficult makes your future play difficult as well, I think the priority is to make your play more clear cut. If you raise 2.5-3bb it is much harder to get away from, and KJ is a crappy hand, even in position.His push is a no brainer with AJ. There isnt much that dominates him, holding an A makes it somewhat less likely you have an A and more likely youre on an underpair, and hes getting solid odds...its a bonus that he dominated you that i wouldnt count on in his spot, but if hes going to move up significantly in this tourney this is a good hand to take a shot with. the bonus he can figure into his move is some fold equity.Hes giving himself 6:4 odds, which is probably breakeven in tEV, but a big bump in $EV.

[simo_8ball 1]

So you prefer shoving in 4xbb here? That is (imo) unnecessary. With high blinds, smaller raises work better.

KJ is a crappy hand, even in position.

Yeah. This is why I say fold preflop.I'm just interested as to why you think limping is a better play than raising.