ChrisRichey 1 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Early on in a $10 9 person sng on Stars. I have been trying to step up the aggression lately, and this is one hand that I am question myself on. Also, I know am out of position on this hand pf, but this table so far has just had lots of limpers going to the flop, and I just felt like playing them.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero (t1500)MP2 (t940)MP3 (t2030)CO (t1410)Button (t1470)SB (t1480)BB (t1450)UTG (t790)UTG+1 (t2430)Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5, 6. UTG calls t20, 1 fold, Hero calls t20, 4 folds, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: (t80) 5, 6, 4(4 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets t60, SB calls t60, BB calls t60, UTG folds.Turn: (t260) 8(3 players)SB bets t100, BB raises to t200, Hero folds, SB calls t100.River: (t660) 7(2 players)SB checks, BB checks.Final Pot: t660 Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 no I dont think there was much you could do on any street Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Early on in a $10 9 person sng on Stars. I have been trying to step up the aggression lately, and this is one hand that I am question myself on. Also, I know am out of position on this hand pf, but this table so far has just had lots of limpers going to the flop, and I just felt like playing them.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Hero (t1500)MP2 (t940)MP3 (t2030)CO (t1410)Button (t1470)SB (t1480)BB (t1450)UTG (t790)UTG+1 (t2430)Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5, 6. UTG calls t20, 1 fold, Hero calls t20, 4 folds, SB completes, BB checks.Flop: (t80) 5, 6, 4(4 players)SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets t60, SB calls t60, BB calls t60, UTG folds.Turn: (t260) 8(3 players)SB bets t100, BB raises to t200, Hero folds, SB calls t100.River: (t660) 7(2 players)SB checks, BB checks.Final Pot: t660This was played horribly.I'm not a fan of the limp, but if you think you're going to see a flop for cheap and it be multiway, which is the only reason you should be playing small suited connectors, for the EV factor.so., lets see, You dont hit your perfect flop but u hit a good one.Your bet of 60 into that pot is NO good. You dont gain any info right now, and when the 4th card to the straight hits you think you're screwed and fold.YOu need to bet more on the flop to find out more info cuz right now they're calling with any two cards at that stage with that board Link to post Share on other sites
psujohn 0 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I find that low level SNG players are more swayed by the absolute number of chips in a bet rather than the number of chips in a bet compared to the BB. So early on you might need to bet 5X PF to make them consider folding where in the higher levels 2.5X will have them running.In other words "What Royal said". This looks like a good spot to overbet the flop. Link to post Share on other sites
gobears 0 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I think the play was fine - everbody checked to you on the flop and you fire a standard probe bet of about 3/4 the pot.You could bet more but you don't really want to chase out anybody with two overcards as you would be in good shape if someone hits their overcard on the turn.Of course you take the risk of a bad card hitting on the turn which is what happened. You have position on both villains so peeling one off on the turn would be a reasonable play plus you have redraws to the boat. The min-raise by BB is somewhat scary but I wouldn't fold two pair here as BB could be bluffing due to the scare card that hit. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I think the play was fine - everbody checked to you on the flop and you fire a standard probe bet of about 3/4 the pot.You could bet more but you don't really want to chase out anybody with two overcards as you would be in good shape if someone hits their overcard on the turn.Of course you take the risk of a bad card hitting on the turn which is what happened. You have position on both villains so peeling one off on the turn would be a reasonable play plus you have redraws to the boat. The min-raise by BB is somewhat scary but I wouldn't fold two pair here as BB could be bluffing due to the scare card that hit.too many players in this who limped, too much speculation with a small bet.Players think in relation to their stack, not "oh that was a pot size bet".similar to what psujohn stated Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 3/4 pot on the flop makes the draws pay. Betting more makes it even more attractive for a bluff if overcards call but a scare card comes.There isnt much invested in this pot and its early in the tourney. I dont see any reason to commit a lot of chips with that board, and getting away from it with the turn scare card isnt at all painful especially against two players. Its 9:1 against to hit the boat, and one of the two opponents should make you pay to see whether your 2 pair is good if the board hadnt hit the straight. Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 3/4 pot on the flop makes the draws pay. Betting more makes it even more attractive for a bluff if overcards call but a scare card comes.There isnt much invested in this pot and its early in the tourney. I dont see any reason to commit a lot of chips with that board, and getting away from it with the turn scare card isnt at all painful especially against two players. Its 9:1 against to hit the boat, and one of the two opponents should make you pay to see whether your 2 pair is good if the board hadnt hit the straight.well maybe i'm crazy but there has been some action at this table already if u look at the stacks, I look at this situation as a good spot to put us to 2k.any hand drawing is still way behind us Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 well maybe i'm crazy but there has been some action at this table already if u look at the stacks, I look at this situation as a good spot to put us to 2k.any hand drawing is still way behind usand a made straight is way ahead, if you can even call a river bet.Your hand against 3 totally random hands is only 36% to win, which is about the breakeven point if you call the turn and a 400 bet on the river. Chop a few percent off that for the hands that would have gotten a raise preflop or on the flop and you swing somewhat to the negative EV side.It may be close, and more style than substance differences, but I dont think this ones worth it. Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisRichey 1 Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 Thank you guys for your opinions. I do see how a larger bet on the flop may have defined my hand, but with a hand that was very susceptible to draws, not to mention a possible set, I wanted to keep the pot small. Results: SB had Q5o and BB had T8o Link to post Share on other sites
Royal_Tour 0 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Thank you guys for your opinions. I do see how a larger bet on the flop may have defined my hand, but with a hand that was very susceptible to draws, not to mention a possible set, I wanted to keep the pot small. Results: SB had Q5o and BB had T8oI'm not one to be results based, but I'm always correct. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Thank you guys for your opinions. I do see how a larger bet on the flop may have defined my hand, but with a hand that was very susceptible to draws, not to mention a possible set, I wanted to keep the pot small.so the more likely you are to be outdrawn the better the price you want to give with top two?has poker turned upside down ? Link to post Share on other sites
gadjet 11 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Your hand against 3 totally random hands is only 36% to win, which is about the breakeven point if you call the turn and a 400 bet on the river. Chop a few percent off that for the hands that would have gotten a raise preflop or on the flop and you swing somewhat to the negative EV side.It may be close, and more style than substance differences, but I dont think this ones worth it.This is ridiculous, Royal is saying a bigger flop bet, and you're arguing based on the results of what the turn and river ended up being... Result oriented strategy is -EV Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 This is ridiculous, Royal is saying a bigger flop bet, and you're arguing based on the results of what the turn and river ended up being... Result oriented strategy is -EVhuh? im talking about the turn and river here, not the flop Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisRichey 1 Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 so the more likely you are to be outdrawn the better the price you want to give with top two?has poker turned upside down ?But how is betting 3/4 of the pot giving them the right price? Yes, it is a small amount, due to the size of the blinds. But if they choose to draw, not getting the right odds, aren't they still making a mistake? Regardless of the bet relative to stack sizes, are they not calling unprofitably if they are drawing? Link to post Share on other sites
gadjet 11 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 But how is betting 3/4 of the pot giving them the right price? Yes, it is a small amount, due to the size of the blinds. But if they choose to draw, not getting the right odds, aren't they still making a mistake? Regardless of the bet relative to stack sizes, are they not calling unprofitably if they are drawing?One thing to note, implied odds are big when blinds and pot size are small...Disclaimer, not saying anything about the 3/4 size bet, I'm just pointing out something to keep in mind...huh? im talking about the turn and river here, not the flopWhy when the hero folded, and it's the obvious play would you talk about the turn and river? Added to this, you were responding to someone who was talking about a larger flop bet... Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 But how is betting 3/4 of the pot giving them the right price? Yes, it is a small amount, due to the size of the blinds. But if they choose to draw, not getting the right odds, aren't they still making a mistake? Regardless of the bet relative to stack sizes, are they not calling unprofitably if they are drawing?I think the mind set of assuming you are always against a draw with X outs leads to:Folding too often when "it hits"Calling big bets too often when it doesn't OOP with a big flop and vulnerable hand, I'd like to know more info than "I'm pricing the oesd out, assuming I don't pay any more when it hits, even thouhh I have top two"it's a tough handjust lending another input hereobviously we all know to put them on ranges.It's just that the "draw" ranges get too much emphasis in my book Link to post Share on other sites
gadjet 11 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I think the mind set of assuming you are always against a draw with X outs leads to:Folding too often when "it hits"Calling big bets too often when it doesn'tI like this point, because a good player can also pick his spots to represent a made draw.. Also sometimes I find if I put someone on a draw and make a large bet accordingly, if it comes then I'm kind of in no mans land... Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I like this point, because a good player can also pick his spots to represent a made draw.. Also sometimes I find if I put someone on a draw and make a large bet accordingly, if it comes then I'm kind of in no mans land...When there is tension between keeping a pot small and pricing out possible draws it comes down to the question "Is my hand worth protecting at the price it will cost to protect it?"When the answer is yes that will often lead to overbetting the price against a 1 card draw on the flop, because most average players think in terms of two card draws (4x outs) without considering that they may have to make a turn bet.When the answer is no that can mean anything from barely pricing out a 1 card draw all the way down to giving a free card. Even if he has more outs than you, if giving a free card can lead to you both drawing monsters (eg your full house to bottom two pair to his straight or flush), the EV of giving a free card may well be greater than the EV of pricing him out to protect two pair. Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisRichey 1 Posted August 25, 2006 Author Share Posted August 25, 2006 I actually didn't even consider giving a free card here. I really was hoping the turn would blank and I could take down a small pot. I am assuming that when the blinds go up, giving a free card would likely be -EV, right? Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 I actually didn't even consider giving a free card here. I really was hoping the turn would blank and I could take down a small pot. I am assuming that when the blinds go up, giving a free card would likely be -EV, right?Yes...because your answer to the rhetorical "is it worth protecting" question is probably yes with blinds large relative to stacks. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now