51 replies to this topic

[DB10-2]

i don't know if there is a right answer here. odds probably say to call against the likely hands we've discussed, but the chances of winning are, obviously, low.i'm most concerned about AA with doublesuited cards in the high-straight ballpark of my hand. so, if my hand makes a straight, i'm probably in danger to a hand like AA89 or AA910 or something. that's the real problem with the hand. the same goes for making a low flush against nut flush draws.with two players all in, somebody's probably got our hand in a pretty bad spot. i think, overall, it's a bad gamble. fold.

[Canada]

KVOM, on Wednesday, August 30th, 2006, 5:15 PM, said:

Some non-mathematical considerations: If DN is raising with this hand UTG I imagine he has been successful at stealing a lot of blinds. Hence his advantage over these players is probably greater than the 1% he is getting on this hand.

The reason DN works with these small raises on 'non-raisable' hands is to help his information gathering.When he gets reraised by a very tight player as opposed to being simply raised after limping, its a safe bet the raiser has a very strong hand, probably AAxx.Then when a tight player re-re-raises the thought process is similar.This makes the need to do +/- 1% calcs at the table uneccesary. You can deduce that you are putting in a good portion less than a third of the pot knowing that there is a good chance they are both holding AAxx, so against their likely ranges you have moved from a small dog upwards making it a call

[LooseCannon]

KVOM, on Wednesday, August 30th, 2006, 8:15 AM, said:

The quiz is "what would you do?", not "what is the correct play?"At the table there is no way I (personally) could evaluate that I was a 28% favorite with pot odds of 27%, so my instinct would be to fold.Some non-mathematical considerations: If DN is raising with this hand UTG I imagine he has been successful at stealing a lot of blinds. Hence his advantage over these players is probably greater than the 1% he is getting on this hand.

I don't know abut you, but I prefer it when what I would do is the same thing as what is the correct play.When playing pot limit omaha, these sorts of situations come up often enough that you have to be prepared and think ahead of time about what hands play well in multi-way all-in situations, both preflop and on the flop.PLO isn't a game for stealing blinds, and definitely not UTG. If DN raises UTG with this hand, it is because he is making a pot-building raise that he would like to see called.

[Mercury69]

Call and pray for a str8 flush.Nah, I lied. Two low C's and S's? Folderama. Pot odds? Ha!

[EmOEmU]

Guys heres something i dont think anyones said yet. the vote is pretty close so based on pot odds it probably doesnt matter if you fold or call in the long runbut if you make a call like this then everybody will notice and you'll send a message that you will protect your raises and cant be moved off hands. call here and no one will try to bluff you anytime soon

[Head_Trauma]

shpaget, on Monday, August 28th, 2006, 12:00 PM, said:

Even if you are against KcKsQsJc and AcAsTsTc you are 32% to win...and I have to think that that is pretty close to your worst-case scenario against their probably holdings.

This is not even close to a worst-case scenario... change the suits of that first hand to KhKdQhQd so that it is no longer dominated. We are now 23.7% to win! None of you have accurately calculated the pot odds of this situation. You must include a range of hands. I just gave one example in which we clearly have incorrect pot odds.

[LooseCannon]

Head_Trauma, on Monday, September 4th, 2006, 3:34 PM, said:

This is not even close to a worst-case scenario... change the suits of that first hand to KhKdQhQd so that it is no longer dominated. We are now 23.7% to win! None of you have accurately calculated the pot odds of this situation. You must include a range of hands. I just gave one example in which we clearly have incorrect pot odds.

This is balanced by the times you are 45% to win the hand. Because your opponents are tight, more often than not, the side cards to the aces each almost certainly have are more likely to conflict with eadh other than to block your hand.Plus, the third player in this hand should probably be folding KKQQds in this spot. Playing that hand is like playing JJ after UTG raises and a very tight player raises in a no limit hold em cash game. I think people are way overestimating the chances that at least one opponent doesn't hold AAxx.

[shpaget]

Head_Trauma, on Monday, September 4th, 2006, 3:34 PM, said:

This is not even close to a worst-case scenario... change the suits of that first hand to KhKdQhQd so that it is no longer dominated. We are now 23.7% to win! None of you have accurately calculated the pot odds of this situation. You must include a range of hands. I just gave one example in which we clearly have incorrect pot odds.

Then you're not reading, or understanding, the other posts in this thread...because I, and many others, have CLEARLY stated that the range of hands your opponents hold likely makes you over 30% to win the hand.In response to your hand...here are some plausible holdings - give player one AhAdKcQc and player two AsAcTsTc and you are 40% to win.....give player two AsAcKsKh and you're 43% to win...if player one has AhAcKdKs and player two has AdAsKhKc you are 58% to win...we can play this game forever if you want.You are likely well over 30% against their RANGE of hands, (and I'd venture to guess 35%), and since you only need 28%, call is the correct play.

[darkrider88]

The odds are there. If you are hesitant about calling here and you understand that the odds are in your favor, then you are playing too far above your bankroll. In a tourney, you can argue for this fold because although you are getting odds, you are risking your tournament life with not that huge of an edge.In a cash game, when you can rebuy at will, there is no reason to fold this hand given the math expressed above by our forum math whizzes.

[LuckyChewy]

DanielNegreanu, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 2:28 PM, said:

You are playing $100-$200 blind Pot Limit Omaha and come in raising to $600 with 3 4 5 8 A very tight player re-raised the pot, making it $2100 to go and only had $1100 left. Now, another tight player goes all in for a total of $3600. You have to call $3000 more in what will most certainly be a three way pot. What would you do?

i'd call. even if we have both our suits dominated assuming both tight players have big pairs or double suited broadway hands we are still only slightly worse than a 3:1 dog, and getting better than 3:1 on the call given this is a worst case scenario i can't see folding. i'm sure there are some scenarios in which the tight players both have aces or other big broadway hands and they are the ones sharing cards/suits and we have almost 50% equity.-andrew

[cardshark202]

This is a pretty stupid question btw, because I doubt such a game exists where everyone is sitting with about 20BBs. If it did you have made a mistake by a) sitting in the game and b ) raising with that hand.

[shpaget]

cardshark202, on Tuesday, September 12th, 2006, 11:56 PM, said:

This is a pretty stupid question btw, because I doubt such a game exists where everyone is sitting with about 20BBs. If it did you have made a mistake by a) sitting in the game and b ) raising with that hand.

That's funny...you must be psychic...where does it say anywhere that everyone at the table has such short stacks...from what I read, I only see two players with short stacks, and they could have short stacks for any number of reasons, and it's quite typical at ANY games to at least see a couple of people in that situation.