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Do You Make This Call? ($11 Sng)


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#21 fckthis

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 10:00 AM

View PostActuary, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 9:32 AM, said:

you played A4 for 700t ?mixing it up means open raising 65s from the button, not limping with A-rag.
But I do that all the time....from utg
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#22 Actuary

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 10:28 AM

View Postfckthis, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 10:00 AM, said:

But I do that all the time....from utg
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#23 WolvenASE

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 11:31 AM

View Poststrategy, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 7:49 AM, said:

What's he going to do differently with a ten as opposed to a flush or straight draw, and how can you know this by playing with the guy for at most 30 minutes?I had to laugh at "definitely not a hand that could beat mine." Reminds me of the old saying, "put them on a hand you can beat and call."
Because the pots he did value bet out was never more than 2/3rds of the pot. It was a chance, sure, but I figured the chances were higher that he was bluffing than having a hand at all.Anyways, I'm glad you found the comedic humor in it. It's a shame that I also considered the hands that beat me, decided if it was possible knowing his play style, and the way he played it, that it was not a probability that he had a hand that beat mine. The way the entire hand came down, it was logical to me that he missed, and was giving his only shot to win the pot right on the spot.It's fine if you want to scrutinize my way of thinking, but don't get hissy because I decided I didn't agree with your input.If you think limping with Ace-weak isn't mixing it up, well, then maybe you should consider it. I'm not going to raise, consistantly, all the time with an ace in the cutoff or button. Limping is a fine option. Alternating between limping, raising, and calling raises is certainly "mixing it up". You can't just "mix it up" by the various hands you might hold, Actuary.. Sure, that's one way, but there's that entirely different factor you consider. You should -never- suggest that you raise with Ace-weak all the time when it's folded around to you and you're on or one off the button. The fact that you have a preset idea everytime is absurd, and is certainly predictable. Varying the raise size won't cut it, since there's only so many ways you can vary it. Limping, or calling, is one of the better ways to disguise any hand. And while you may let a weaker hand hit a monster flop, it can always work in your favor the exact same amount of times it may not. And while the risk may be high, the reward factor is right up there with it.

#24 Actuary

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 11:41 AM

View PostWolvenASE, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 11:31 AM, said:

If you think limping with Ace-weak isn't mixing it up, well, then maybe you should consider it. I'm not going to raise, consistantly, all the time with an ace in the cutoff or button. Limping is a fine option. Alternating between limping, raising, and calling raises is certainly "mixing it up". You can't just "mix it up" by the various hands you might hold, Actuary.. Sure, that's one way, but there's that entirely different factor you consider. You should -never- suggest that you raise with Ace-weak all the time when it's folded around to you and you're on or one off the button. The fact that you have a preset idea everytime is absurd, and is certainly predictable. Varying the raise size won't cut it, since there's only so many ways you can vary it. Limping, or calling, is one of the better ways to disguise any hand. And while you may let a weaker hand hit a monster flop, it can always work in your favor the exact same amount of times it may not. And while the risk may be high, the reward factor is right up there with it.
if I raise TJs and A4 and KK and K7s and 44 and 94 (for grins) when opening, how am I predictable?to me mixin it up is best by raisng hands you normally fold/call with but will raise occassionally. playing A-rag period is precarious.I would not doubt your post flop game is superior to mine; so maybe when flop comes A89 you can handle yourself just fine.fwiw, I actually fold A-rag a lot, unless blinds are worth stealing.in which case I'm raising so many hands, limping would look strange.

#25 psujohn

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 12:46 PM

Actuary - you're mistaking the OP for someone who wanted to post a hand here to learn something. OP wanted to post this hand to TEACH us something. Namely how great he is.OP - You played the hand somewhere between poorly and miserably. You can't "know a player's style" well enough in a $11 SNG to put him on any kind of range that you beat. It's simply not possible with the limited number of hands you see and the erratic behavior of low buy-in players. There's also little reason to "mix it up" by limping a hand that's favored over 2 random hands. Your opponents aren't paying any attention to what you're doing. Even if they were they won't have enough hands against you to form any but the most general of opinions about your play style.

#26 The Phoenix

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 12:53 PM

View PostWolvenASE, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 3:31 PM, said:

Because the pots he did value bet out was never more than 2/3rds of the pot. It was a chance, sure, but I figured the chances were higher that he was bluffing than having a hand at all.Anyways, I'm glad you found the comedic humor in it. It's a shame that I also considered the hands that beat me, decided if it was possible knowing his play style, and the way he played it, that it was not a probability that he had a hand that beat mine. The way the entire hand came down, it was logical to me that he missed, and was giving his only shot to win the pot right on the spot.It's fine if you want to scrutinize my way of thinking, but don't get hissy because I decided I didn't agree with your input.If you think limping with Ace-weak isn't mixing it up, well, then maybe you should consider it. I'm not going to raise, consistantly, all the time with an ace in the cutoff or button. Limping is a fine option. Alternating between limping, raising, and calling raises is certainly "mixing it up". You can't just "mix it up" by the various hands you might hold, Actuary.. Sure, that's one way, but there's that entirely different factor you consider. You should -never- suggest that you raise with Ace-weak all the time when it's folded around to you and you're on or one off the button. The fact that you have a preset idea everytime is absurd, and is certainly predictable. Varying the raise size won't cut it, since there's only so many ways you can vary it. Limping, or calling, is one of the better ways to disguise any hand. And while you may let a weaker hand hit a monster flop, it can always work in your favor the exact same amount of times it may not. And while the risk may be high, the reward factor is right up there with it.
I completely agree with Actuary about raising preflop here. I don't see any benefit to limping. I don't see it as mixing it up. A-rag is not a hand you mix it up with, it is a raise or fold hand. As the blinds increase and players get eliminated it goes from a folding to a raising hand if you are opening the pot. I don't think limping with A4 is a fine option 5 handed on the button. I think it is an auto-raise. I don't see how "disguising" A4 is a benefit to you. It's not a hand you are going to hit a monster with very often. It has very little strength. If you hit your ace you might be in big trouble if you are outkicked. When you hit just a pair of 4's you are in a very marginal situation. With A Rag I want the blinds and move on to the next hand. In this situation you were fortunate. I hate the limp there, I HATE it. As Actuary said, if you are raising with all types of hands you won't be predictable. When 5 handed and being 2nd in chips with blinds now starting to get significant you should be opening a ton of pots and you will NOT be predictable. As for the post flop play I think I would have played it the same way. I may have value bet the turn depending on my opponent.

#27 psujohn

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 01:07 PM

View PostThe Phoenix, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 4:53 PM, said:

As for the post flop play I think I would have played it the same way. I may have value bet the turn depending on my opponent.
Including calling the river? Assuming someone holds a gun to my head and forces me to limp my plan is to CB the flop and give up anything but a miracle. Losing big pots with marginal hands in bsb situations has been a big leak of mine.

#28 copernicus

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 01:08 PM

If youre not folding A-rag in early and middle position 90% of the time then you are either an unbelievably good post-flop player that can get away from it when its losing and collect on it when it wins, or you have a big leak. In a no-foldem game where Ax is rarely folded, you are begging to be dominated, and there is no way to read the players well enough to know when its good or isnt.You beat low-limit tournaments by extracting the most chips you can when you have very strong hands, and by capitalizing on the implied odds of potential monsters like suited connectors when the table is passive enough to let you see cheap flops. You wont get anywhere with A4 in the long run.
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#29 strategy

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 01:12 PM

View PostWolvenASE, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 12:31 PM, said:

Because the pots he did value bet out was never more than 2/3rds of the pot. It was a chance, sure, but I figured the chances were higher that he was bluffing than having a hand at all.
I have no problem with the call on the river. You have to do it with the way you played the hand. Your reasoning reminded me of a funny quote. No harm meant.

View PostWolvenASE, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 12:31 PM, said:

A4o is a fine holding and I stand by that assessment.
psujohn covered this nicely.
QUOTE (ShakeZuma @ Wednesday, November 2nd, 2011, 4:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
seriously though, with that grammar it's really like, I mean it doesn't bother me as much that she gets beat, you know?


#30 WolvenASE

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 01:31 PM

View Postcopernicus, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 1:08 PM, said:

If youre not folding A-rag in early and middle position 90% of the time then you are either an unbelievably good post-flop player that can get away from it when its losing and collect on it when it wins, or you have a big leak. In a no-foldem game where Ax is rarely folded, you are begging to be dominated, and there is no way to read the players well enough to know when its good or isnt.You beat low-limit tournaments by extracting the most chips you can when you have very strong hands, and by capitalizing on the implied odds of potential monsters like suited connectors when the table is passive enough to let you see cheap flops. You wont get anywhere with A4 in the long run.
I like to see flops. I play all sorts of hands, as long as they're playable. A4 is definitely in the upper portions of what I usually play. I am -very- confident in my post flop play. I've been able to REALLY capitalize on the weak players in these limits because I know what I'm doing. By reading your last paragraph, I'm getting the gist that maybe you misunderstand why I'm playing an A4. In this spot, I'm a favorite over any random hand. I'm not looking to play a big pot unless I flop a monster, which A4 has a potential of doing by flopping a wheel. Of course, it's ridiculous to go by the theory "any two cards can make a full house" in playing these kinds of hands, that's not the point. I'm looking to pick up an ace against a higher pair, or even a pocket pair, and pick up a small pot. I'm confident in my ability to decipher if I have the best of it or not.Again, I certainly do play my fair share of suited connectors. Any possible chance I get to play them, I'm in there, as long as the logical conditions are set. I'm a very loose player, and it's not rare for me to see 65% of the flops in one SNG. I'd say about 70% of the time, I came in with an openening raise. 20% of the time, I call a raise, and 10% of the time it's with a limp.Going back up to what I said, A4 is definitely a playable hand by my standards. I'm completely disregarding what "strategy" has to say, now, since he can't seem to be able to grasp the concept of what I'm trying to convey. I've never said I will play A4 any chance I get. Just like almost any other hand, it's completely situational. I find a situation to play it in, and this time around, I chose to limp with it.I absoloutely love to steal blinds, since it fits in with my aggressive style and no one can really always say I'm on a steal if I'm opening up from every position out there. A play that I have incorporated for awhile, though, is the one I tried to make here.I was completely ready to fold to a raise here. But my incentive for playing this hand was to steal the blinds. And rather than making it a bit more obvious with a raise on the button, I like to bet out on the flop, and hope they have nothing. Obviously, this has some risk to it, and I understand that, but so does raising from the button and having a blind wake up with a large hand. He either has it in his hand preflop, or makes one on the flop. Either way, your chances of picking up the blinds in both spots are around the same. It's one of my favorite plays to make.I'm not trying to teach anything. I'm a learning player, and I believe a close minded approach to poker will hinder you in the long run. It's important for me to grasp other's views so I can understand their thinking, and with that new gem, I will undoubtedly be able to apply it to any future games I may play.Actuary - I understand your point in saying that A4 can be disguised if you're raising with a wide range of hands. However, like I said, hands are also well disguised by just simply limping, or calling. Not everything has to be done with a raise. Obviously, since this is one hand, I can see where you're coming from, but let me assure you that I raise more often than not with a hand like this than limp. But to be truly unpredictable and just not hyper-aggressive, I believe limping from time to time is a move to really consider.EDIT: Sorry, that was really unorganized, but I've been up for 28 hours, so I'm not really able to construct a proper paragraph. >>

#31 Actuary

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 01:35 PM

View PostWolvenASE, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 1:31 PM, said:

Actuary - I understand your point in saying that A4 can be disguised if you're raising with a wide range of hands. However, like I said, hands are also well disguised by just simply limping, or calling. Not everything has to be done with a raise. Obviously, since this is one hand, I can see where you're coming from, but let me assure you that I raise more often than not with a hand like this than limp. But to be truly unpredictable and just not hyper-aggressive, I believe limping from time to time is a move to really consider.EDIT: Sorry, that was really unorganized, but I've been up for 28 hours, so I'm not really able to construct a proper paragraph. >>
I look forward to learning more from you.I limp a ton. Probably too much for most tastesJust not with A4 from LP.I'd rather limp with QQ there ( not that I would, unless a bet monkey was in the blinds)

#32 The Phoenix

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 01:47 PM

View Postpsujohn, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 5:07 PM, said:

Including calling the river? Assuming someone holds a gun to my head and forces me to limp my plan is to CB the flop and give up anything but a miracle. Losing big pots with marginal hands in bsb situations has been a big leak of mine.
I feel as strongly against limping as you do. I'd normally play it the same way post flop as well, CB and then check down or fold. If my opponent had any poker skills whatsoever I'm done with the hand.I played my share of $11 SNG's and the way hand played out is exactly how the majority of players play. Limp, check call, check, bet river. That is how a missed draw is played a large percentage of the time. Some people will even bet ace high here. You'll run into slowplayed trips/boat a small percentage of the time, but your 4's are good a lot here considering all the weakness shown. The pot is $1000 and its $400 to call so I can't say the call is correct if we breakdown the percentages of what his holdings are, but i figure after the first few levels I'll have a basic understanding of what type of player this is, and if I judge him to be a poor player I'm going to look him up. Against a rock or a decent player I'll let it go. All that said, I'm not open limping with A4 on the button 5 handed ever.

#33 WolvenASE

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 01:50 PM

View PostActuary, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 1:35 PM, said:

I look forward to learning more from you.I limp a ton. Probably too much for most tastesJust not with A4 from LP.I'd rather limp with QQ there ( not that I would, unless a bet monkey was in the blinds)
Really? I'd play QQ in that spot for value most of the time. I see myself making that play 3 handed, but not with the amount of players still left in the game. I'd play QQ for it's value, which contrasts my goal with the A-4o to pick up the blinds on the flop. The 4 on the flop obviously changed the course of the hand, but that was the general mindset I had going into it.

#34 Actuary

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 01:52 PM

View PostWolvenASE, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 1:50 PM, said:

Really? I'd play QQ in that spot for value most of the time.
yes me too.that's why I said unless a bet monkey (someone who will raise/lead any preflop/flop if they smell weakness) is in the blindsjust trying to make the contrast with A4, which I don't want to play post flop.

#35 WolvenASE

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 02:04 PM

View PostActuary, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 1:52 PM, said:

yes me too.that's why I said unless a bet monkey (someone who will raise/lead any preflop/flop if they smell weakness) is in the blindsjust trying to make the contrast with A4, which I don't want to play post flop.
Ohh.. I get it.I see what you're saying now. And I understand. But with my playstyle and how I play, I'm perfectly fine playing this hand postflop if I feel I have a shot at outplaying my opponent.

#36 strategy

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 02:12 PM

View PostWolvenASE, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 2:31 PM, said:

Going back up to what I said, A4 is definitely a playable hand by my standards. I'm completely disregarding what "strategy" has to say, now, since he can't seem to be able to grasp the concept of what I'm trying to convey. I've never said I will play A4 any chance I get. Just like almost any other hand, it's completely situational. I find a situation to play it in, and this time around, I chose to limp with it.
The obvious answer to this is to raise or fold preflop, but I didn't look at the responses to see if anyone had bothered to tell you that. So there that is. Sorry for not being direct.
QUOTE (ShakeZuma @ Wednesday, November 2nd, 2011, 4:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
seriously though, with that grammar it's really like, I mean it doesn't bother me as much that she gets beat, you know?


#37 WolvenASE

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 02:14 PM

View Poststrategy, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 2:12 PM, said:

The obvious answer to this is to raise or fold preflop, but I didn't look at the responses to see if anyone had bothered to tell you that. So there that is. Sorry for not being direct.
It's unfortunate that you think those are the only two options. I'm sorry you feel that way.

#38 strategy

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 02:20 PM

View PostWolvenASE, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 3:14 PM, said:

It's unfortunate that you think those are the only two options. I'm sorry you feel that way.
Sorry, you're not Gus Hansen, Mr. 65%+ VP$IP.
QUOTE (ShakeZuma @ Wednesday, November 2nd, 2011, 4:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
seriously though, with that grammar it's really like, I mean it doesn't bother me as much that she gets beat, you know?


#39 WolvenASE

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 02:25 PM

View Poststrategy, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 2:20 PM, said:

Sorry, you're not Gus Hansen, Mr. 65%+ VP$IP.
What's your problem?You seem to not be able to comprehend the concept that someone might have different views than you do in -one- hand, and without backing up your side with theories or claims, you decide to make petty personal attacks that don't really do much to make you look very mature, let alone intelligent.You're right. I'm not Gus Hansen. I don't have the balls to play 9-2. 6-2 is fine. 9-2? Ew, no, sorry. :club: Seeing about 65% of the flops has obviously worked for me. I am sincerely apologetic if you think I'm cramping Gus' style. But if you aren't going to have anything insightful to add, then I don't even know why you bother in the first place. :D

#40 strategy

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 02:33 PM

View PostWolvenASE, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 3:25 PM, said:

What's your problem?You seem to not be able to comprehend the concept that someone might have different views than you do in -one- hand, and without backing up your side with theories or claims, you decide to make petty personal attacks that don't really do much to make you look very mature, let alone intelligent.You're right. I'm not Gus Hansen. I don't have the balls to play 9-2. 6-2 is fine. 9-2? Ew, no, sorry. :club: Seeing about 65% of the flops has obviously worked for me. I am sincerely apologetic if you think I'm cramping Gus' style. But if you aren't going to have anything insightful to add, then I don't even know why you bother in the first place. :D
I'm giving you crap because you posted with no intention of listening to what anyone else had to say. It's pretty funny that you and actuary are fast friends--he's often guilty of the same. But you can go ahead and continue to write your novel about why you're willing to limp A4o on the button in a low limit sit and go. I'm sure your ROI will thank you for that."Good luck."
QUOTE (ShakeZuma @ Wednesday, November 2nd, 2011, 4:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
seriously though, with that grammar it's really like, I mean it doesn't bother me as much that she gets beat, you know?





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