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Do You Make This Call? ($11 Sng)


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#1 WolvenASE

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 12:51 PM

Sorry guys, couldn't find a converter for FTP hands. (If you do know a place though, I wouldn't mind an URL. :club:)Full Tilt Poker Game #913946859: $10 + $1 Sit & Go (6137277), Table 1 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:39:44 ET - 2006/08/19Seat 1: RagDollar (4,045)Seat 2: PoKaHeAD15 (1,970)Seat 4: Hero (3,545)Seat 5: DonkeyPunchBU (1,595)Seat 9: neogab909 (2,345)DonkeyPunchBU posts the small blind of 50neogab909 posts the big blind of 100The button is in seat #4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Hero [4h As]RagDollar foldsPoKaHeAD15 foldsHero calls 100DonkeyPunchBU calls 50neogab909 checks*** FLOP *** [Tc 4c Js]DonkeyPunchBU checksneogab909 checksHero bets 150DonkeyPunchBU calls 150neogab909 folds*** TURN *** [Tc 4c Js] [Td]DonkeyPunchBU checksHero checks*** RIVER *** [Tc 4c Js Td] [3s]DonkeyPunchBU has 15 seconds left to actDonkeyPunchBU bets 400Hero ??*** SUMMARY ***I had been bullying him around for most of the game. Betting when I was on the button into him, check raising him, minraising him, etc. Overall, he seemed to be a pretty solid, but passive player. What would you guys do?

#2 AcesOnFire

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 01:00 PM

Couldn't call. Why the check on the turn? I would of made some kind of raise to find out where I was.
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#3 WolvenASE

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 01:16 PM

Since I had position on him and I didn't want to get into a big confrontation, that's my way of controlling the size of the pot.

#4 AcesOnFire

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 01:28 PM

View PostWolvenASE, on Saturday, August 19th, 2006, 10:16 PM, said:

Since I had position on him and I didn't want to get into a big confrontation, that's my way of controlling the size of the pot.
I would prioritise getting information over pot size. You don't get a big confrontation but even worse you're faced with a big decision when you don't know where you are.
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#5 WolvenASE

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 01:58 PM

If you do that, you also have a chance of getting checkraised on a bluff. If you're raised, then what? Fold? Why? You could have the best hand. With this play, you can keep the pot small with mediocre hands.I'd much rather make this play, keep the pot small, and interpret a possible bet and then decide what to do rather than take a chance of letting the pot grow out of control. I'd much rather do that than get myself caught in a sticky situation that I'd end up regretting, and be forced to act upon impartial information.

#6 AcesOnFire

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 02:02 PM

View PostWolvenASE, on Saturday, August 19th, 2006, 10:58 PM, said:

If you do that, you also have a chance of getting checkraised on a bluff. If you're raised, then what? Fold? Why? You could have the best hand. With this play, you can keep the pot small with mediocre hands.I'd much rather make this play, keep the pot small, and interpret a possible bet and then decide what to do rather than take a chance of letting the pot grow out of control. I'd much rather do that than get myself caught in a sticky situation that I'd end up regretting, and be forced to act upon impartial information.
You make a a valid point but at this level its unlikely that you'd be check raised as a bluff if your bet is of a good size.
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#7 WolvenASE

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 02:11 PM

View PostAcesOnFire, on Saturday, August 19th, 2006, 2:02 PM, said:

You make a a valid point but at this level its unlikely that you'd be check raised as a bluff if your bet is of a good size.
It may be improbable, but it is certainly probable. Obviously are styles of play conflict, which I appreciate so I can understand a different view of this kind of hand. But I feel like making this play would make this hand as simple as possible. Putting yourself in the position to be checkraised with marginal holdings is never a good spot to be in. I guess, if it helps, although it may already be pretty apparent, is that I like the smallball approach of things. If there was a serious overbet on the river by him, then that would make my decision pretty easy. If there was a raise and a call, the pot would be bigger, and thus a followed bet or raise on the river would also inevitably increase.

#8 AcesOnFire

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 02:26 PM

View PostWolvenASE, on Saturday, August 19th, 2006, 11:11 PM, said:

It may be improbable, but it is certainly probable. Obviously are styles of play conflict, which I appreciate so I can understand a different view of this kind of hand. But I feel like making this play would make this hand as simple as possible. Putting yourself in the position to be checkraised with marginal holdings is never a good spot to be in. I guess, if it helps, although it may already be pretty apparent, is that I like the smallball approach of things. If there was a serious overbet on the river by him, then that would make my decision pretty easy. If there was a raise and a call, the pot would be bigger, and thus a followed bet or raise on the river would also inevitably increase.
I'm not saying your play is incorrect, the chances are you're a more successful player than me.I'm the kind of player that would make that move on the turn though as it could win me the pot aswell as give me something to workwith on the river if he calls, if he raises I would just consider myself beaten.
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#9 WolvenASE

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 02:48 PM

"... win me the pot aswell as give me something to workwith on the river if he calls, if he raises I would just consider myself beaten."Which is exactly why I checked on the turn. I -hate- making decisions more difficult than what they should be, which is why I was apprehensive. I had been bullying him, and it would be a matter of time before he played back at me, which also helped influence my check on the turn. Even then, if that wasn't the case, I would still check on the turn 70% of the time.But as I've said, thanks for giving me your input. I thought it was a nice little conversation. :club:

#10 copernicus

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 03:16 PM

I would fold also.I dont mind the turn check to keep the pot small, but it could have also been kept small by checking the flop with bottom pair. The question is which one is likely to be more profitable. In this case I think you took the right line.The other two have shown weakness with their checks to you, so you clearly have some fold equity. It has good informational value if you get check raised, and slows them down on the turn so it can buy you a cheaper card than checking and letting a made hand bet bigger. That made hand might be content to check raise you and you cross them up with the check.On the other hand they have more potential draws to a big hand than your 5 outer, so you are paying somewhat of a steeper price to see the next card. However, their potential draws will be much easier for you to get away from than it will be for them if you hit the trips or Aces up and they have two pair or TPTK, so the potential payoff is much bigger.Im not sure if this line would be as strong if you were in middle position of the 3 on the flop, but in position I like it a lot.
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#11 Willenation

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Posted 19 August 2006 - 04:45 PM

Raise preflop. There's absolutely no reason to limp the button with an ace here. This river is close, but I'd actually make the call. He hasn't raised/bet the flop or turn with a very dangerous board showing. It is my humble opinion that he has either JT or nothing here. This is read dependant - never make this call against a rock, but against anyone capable of making a river bet on a busted draw, call.

#12 WolvenASE

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 11:10 AM

Well, the reason why I bet on the flop was to either pick up the pot, or filter out everyone that had missed. Also, I figured that with the bet on the flop, that would also give me potential to allow me to keep the pot small with a check on the turn, assuming he thought that I would continue to be the aggressor with another bet on the turn. The limp on the button with the Ace is pretty simple.. I had been making many raises from the cutoff and on the button with Ace-weak a few times. It's a simple matter of mixing it up. The last thing I want to do is be predictable.

#13 copernicus

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 12:06 PM

View PostWolvenASE, on Sunday, August 20th, 2006, 3:10 PM, said:

Well, the reason why I bet on the flop was to either pick up the pot, or filter out everyone that had missed. Also, I figured that with the bet on the flop, that would also give me potential to allow me to keep the pot small with a check on the turn, assuming he thought that I would continue to be the aggressor with another bet on the turn. The limp on the button with the Ace is pretty simple.. I had been making many raises from the cutoff and on the button with Ace-weak a few times. It's a simple matter of mixing it up. The last thing I want to do is be predictable.Well, the reason why I bet on the flop was to either pick up the pot, or filter out everyone that had missed. Also, I figured that with the bet on the flop, that would also give me potential to allow me to keep the pot small with a check on the turn, assuming he thought that I would continue to be the aggressor with another bet on the turn. The limp on the button with the Ace is pretty simple.. I had been making many raises from the cutoff and on the button with Ace-weak a few times. It's a simple matter of mixing it up. The last thing I want to do is be predictable.
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#14 strategy

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 05:11 PM

Bet the turn, check behind on the river. This wasn't really such a terrible turn card for you, BTW. If he check-raises you, he is almost never bluffing. The board has two to a flush and two to a straight, so he can certainly be drawing. By showing weakness on the turn, you allow him to draw for free and set yourself up to get bluffed on the river.The bottom line is that the decision on the river is much easier if you have shown aggression on the flop and turn.
QUOTE (ShakeZuma @ Wednesday, November 2nd, 2011, 4:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
seriously though, with that grammar it's really like, I mean it doesn't bother me as much that she gets beat, you know?


#15 WolvenASE

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 12:55 AM

View Poststrategy, on Sunday, August 20th, 2006, 5:11 PM, said:

The bottom line is that the decision on the river is much easier if you have shown aggression on the flop and turn.
I completely disagree. I think with the line I took made things much, much easier. It allowed me to interpret his bet on the river and act upon it, and that's one of my strong points in online poker, is deciding what a bet means. His 400 into the 600 pot just cried weakness to me. I thought he had something like Ace-weak.. definitely not a hand that could beat mine, however, as I reread the board, the play of the hand, and his large bet on the river.As it turns out, I made the call, and he showed Q9 for a missed straight.

#16 ChrisRichey

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 01:08 AM

I think you definitely need to raise pf. If you have been raising from the CO or Button with Ax, then you need to start mixing up the sizes of your raises. I go between 2.5x and 3.5x the BB when the blinds get above 50/100. Also, they don't know you're raising with Ax everytime, so you still have the deception factor going for you.I like the check on the turn, and the river bet could mean anything. But seeing as how you checked behind on the turn, I would think that villain assumed you were trying to buy the pot on the flop, and had given up. I like a call on the river.

#17 mk

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 07:14 AM

View PostWolvenASE, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 3:55 AM, said:

I completely disagree. I think with the line I took made things much, much easier. It allowed me to interpret his bet on the river and act upon it, and that's one of my strong points in online poker, is deciding what a bet means.
sweet, you rule, but in a $10 stt, it's important to remember that his bet is just as likely to mean that he likes peanut butter. so patting yourself on the back for making a great read here is only likely to lose you money in the future.

#18 strategy

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 07:49 AM

View PostWolvenASE, on Monday, August 21st, 2006, 1:55 AM, said:

I completely disagree. I think with the line I took made things much, much easier. It allowed me to interpret his bet on the river and act upon it, and that's one of my strong points in online poker, is deciding what a bet means. His 400 into the 600 pot just cried weakness to me. I thought he had something like Ace-weak.. definitely not a hand that could beat mine, however, as I reread the board, the play of the hand, and his large bet on the river.As it turns out, I made the call, and he showed Q9 for a missed straight.
What's he going to do differently with a ten as opposed to a flush or straight draw, and how can you know this by playing with the guy for at most 30 minutes?I had to laugh at "definitely not a hand that could beat mine." Reminds me of the old saying, "put them on a hand you can beat and call."
QUOTE (ShakeZuma @ Wednesday, November 2nd, 2011, 4:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
seriously though, with that grammar it's really like, I mean it doesn't bother me as much that she gets beat, you know?


#19 fckthis

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 08:56 AM

Tough hand here, because you can only beat a bluff, and you may have induced one. For the amount you've invested so far, it doesnt seem worth it here, to make a "good call".
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#20 Actuary

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 09:32 AM

you played A4 for 700t ?mixing it up means open raising 65s from the button, not limping with A-rag.




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