Kk Utg + 1

[mkeller3086 0]

Second hand of a party 10 sng so stacks are both 2KHero dealt KK utg + 1blinds 20/40UTG limps, Hero raises to 120, SB calls, UTG callsFlop: (400, 3 players)Q75rSB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets 300, SB calls, UTG foldsTurn (1000, 2 players)JSB checks, Hero bets 800, SB raises to 1580 (all in), Hero calls

[NicksDad1970 0]

I wish I could slow play big PP. I think I like your PF raise. But I would have bet more on the flop. When he raises all in I'd be hoping he had AQ. I think you had to call but I'd be scared of 2 pair.Could you PM me the results?

[trystero 0]

pf raise a bit more with the limperflop bet is fineturn bet a bit less - 600 gets the job done - or check behindfold to what appears to be two pair or a set - you've still got 780 in chips here.

[mkeller3086 0]

pf raise a bit more with the limperflop bet is fineturn bet a bit less - 600 gets the job done - or check behindfold to what appears to be two pair or a set - you've still got 780 in chips here.

i really hate the idea of giving a free card here, could you defend your reasoning for checking behind? I think an overriding factor here is that most 10 dollar sng players are calling with any queen and maybe less.

[trystero 0]

i really hate the idea of giving a free card here, could you defend your reasoning for checking behind? I think an overriding factor here is that most 10 dollar sng players are calling with any queen and maybe less.

Im leery of someone calling me on that board. There are just some straight draws out there. You're right that some players will call with a Q, but I'd have to think that most non-two pair queens attack the flop.I do prefer to bet the turn, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's criminal to check behind with just a pair here.

[mkeller3086 0]

i wanna add this.....i know i f'ed up pf, i need to raise to like 200

[copernicus 0]

I agree with checking the turn. The low board cards came out first and they are unlikely to have been draw cards given the preflop call. The J shows up on the turn, and if hes been calling all along with KT you (or somebody) will get his money later. If he has AK, let him draw to the T for free, its small enough risk compared to betting into what I think looks like two pair or a set.Small pots for small hands.

[Actuary 3]

I agree with checking the turn. The low board cards came out first and they are unlikely to have been draw cards given the preflop call. The J shows up on the turn, and if hes been calling all along with KT you (or somebody) will get his money later. If he has AK, let him draw to the T for free, its small enough risk compared to betting into what I think looks like two pair or a set.Small pots for small hands.

And call how much on the river?

[throwemaway 0]

I agree with checking the turn. The low board cards came out first and they are unlikely to have been draw cards given the preflop call. The J shows up on the turn, and if hes been calling all along with KT you (or somebody) will get his money later. If he has AK, let him draw to the T for free, its small enough risk compared to betting into what I think looks like two pair or a set.Small pots for small hands.

I'm not sure if I call an overpair a small hand..

[strategy 4]

And call how much on the river?

It's a "small hand" so he's obviously folding to any bet. :shakes head:Bet the turn, call the check-raise. It's a $10 SNG; you are much better off going for value.I don't understand how copernicus can conclude from the villain's preflop call and flop call that this is a set or two pair. It could be quite a few hands (90%+ of which we are beating) up until we get check-raised. After the check-raise, we're most likely a dog to his range, but the pot is laying like 3.5:1 and we aren't drawing dead.

[Gallo 1]

I'm not sure if I call an overpair a small hand..

I don't know this could be one of my other leaks, but in a SNG, my chips are going in the middle. If he has 2 pair so be it. He could've seen your flop bet as weak though, although I think your flop bet was fine as was your preflop raise. There are times that I might check the turn, but this guy could just have the Q, but it is possible that he called with QJ or a pp and hit his set, if he called with any other combination there he's an idiot. But otherthan that, my chips are sill going in the middle.Besides after your river bet your committed anyway, you have to call. In SNGs like these where stacks aren't that deep you have to push.

[trystero 0]

It's a "small hand" so he's obviously folding to any bet. :shakes head:Bet the turn, call the check-raise. It's a $10 SNG; you are much better off going for value.I don't understand how copernicus can conclude from the villain's preflop call and flop call that this is a set or two pair. It could be quite a few hands (90%+ of which we are beating) up until we get check-raised. After the check-raise, we're most likely a dog to his range, but the pot is laying like 3.5:1 and we aren't drawing dead.

He didn't conclude that it's a set or 2 pair based on the pf and flop call - he concluded that it's a set or 2 pair based on the pf and flop call and the turn C/R. Big difference. 3.5:1...and we likely have two outs. How are those odds good?

[Actuary 3]

He didn't conclude that it's a set or 2 pair based on the pf and flop call - he concluded that it's a set or 2 pair based on the pf and flop call and the turn C/R. Big difference. 3.5:1...and we likely have two outs. How are those odds good?

we have more that 2 outs vs QJ.and we also have the best hand say 25% conservatively.I'd say we have a better chance making money by calling here than folding with 800 left 10 handed.is it just me or does Copernicus always post as if he wants to justify bad calls by villain or to suggest we should fold. Almost seems results biased, assuming he presumes poster loses. What's good for goose not good for gander?

[copernicus 0]

He didn't conclude that it's a set or 2 pair based on the pf and flop call - he concluded that it's a set or 2 pair based on the pf and flop call and the turn C/R. Big difference. 3.5:1...and we likely have two outs. How are those odds good?

Exactly, trystero, ty.as far as an overpair being a small hand, yes, I think it is. What does it beat that is going to play against you other than TPGK? Big vs small is not just a matter of hand strength, its a combination of hand strength and earning potential...ie potential reward for the risk. AA is a small hand after a fairly dry flop but still meets resistence.

[Actuary 3]

. AA is a small hand after a fairly dry flop but still meets resistence.

not in a $10 SnG.

[throwemaway 0]

not in a $10 SnG.

This is the key here imho..In a $100 sng, I would be more apt to agree with you Copernicus..But this is a $10 sng and its the 2nd hand..I wish I had the hand history but basically on the 2nd hand of one I played yesterday, the board was something like K 10 xxx 2 clubs, and someone with Jack 7 clubs decided to stick it all in there on the river and get called by KQ..This kind of play isn't abnormal..I wouldn't be suprised one bit if the villian had Ace 7, Ace 5, Queen 9, 10, Jack, King, Ace...There are just too many donkeys in $10 stt to give Villain credit for beating our overpair here

[Gallo 1]

This is the key here imho..In a $100 sng, I would be more apt to agree with you Copernicus..But this is a $10 sng and its the 2nd hand..I wish I had the hand history but basically on the 2nd hand of one I played yesterday, the board was something like K 10 xxx 2 clubs, and someone with Jack 7 clubs decided to stick it all in there on the river and get called by KQ..This kind of play isn't abnormal..I wouldn't be suprised one bit if the villian had Ace 7, Ace 5, Queen 9, 10, Jack, King, Ace...There are just too many donkeys in $10 stt to give Villain credit for beating our overpair here

QFTSort of what I was trying to say.I mean in these $10 SNGs you get players calling raises with A4 and getting it all in on flop/turn only to find out they're dominated by like AQ or something. At times they get lucky and they pair up thier weak kicker.

[strategy 4]

He didn't conclude that it's a set or 2 pair based on the pf and flop call - he concluded that it's a set or 2 pair based on the pf and flop call and the turn C/R. Big difference. 3.5:1...and we likely have two outs. How are those odds good?

Those odds are good because we don't have to be wrong very often on the "he can only have a set or two pair here" thinking for this fold to be a bad one. Also, as actuary said, we're not drawing to 2 outs against 2 pair.

[copernicus 0]

This is the key here imho..In a $100 sng, I would be more apt to agree with you Copernicus..But this is a $10 sng and its the 2nd hand..I wish I had the hand history but basically on the 2nd hand of one I played yesterday, the board was something like K 10 xxx 2 clubs, and someone with Jack 7 clubs decided to stick it all in there on the river and get called by KQ..This kind of play isn't abnormal..I wouldn't be suprised one bit if the villian had Ace 7, Ace 5, Queen 9, 10, Jack, King, Ace...There are just too many donkeys in $10 stt to give Villain credit for beating our overpair here

Ive never played $10 SnGs, so I am frequently guilty of assuming that players are rational and competent. If they arent then hand reading becomes impossible and the entire game is based on better pre-flop calling standards and extracting chips from calling stations with high value hands. Actuary...a highly insulting post. If you find inconsistencies between similar situations that are results based, back it up.

[strategy 4]

Ive never played $10 SnGs, so I am frequently guilty of assuming that players are rational and competent. If they arent then hand reading becomes impossible and the entire game is based on better pre-flop calling standards and extracting chips from calling stations with high value hands.

QFT. Low limit tournaments are all about getting value. Not value-betting AA is probably worse than going broke with it when you "know" you're beat, at least when it comes to low limit STTs and MTTs.I misunderstood you in my earlier reply. My apologies.

[Actuary 3]

Actuary...a highly insulting post. If you find inconsistencies between similar situations that are results based, back it up.

I get worse in another thread.Get used to it!It's a sense from a compilation of your responses.overall you allow vilain to put us on a range that makes his call ok; while our standards to do the same are higher. Now that you want proof, I"ll see if I can point them out. I have several times already disagreed with you. But I did not frame it like that.see the K5 hits two pair hand.your fear of monsters is amazingand allowing for draws is mystifying.

[copernicus 0]

I get worse in another thread.Get used to it!It's a sense from a compilation of your responses.overall you allow vilain to put us on a range that makes his call ok; while our standards to do the same are higher. Now that you want proof, I"ll see if I can point them out. I have several times already disagreed with you. But I did not frame it like that.see the K5 hits two pair hand.your fear of monsters is amazingand allowing for draws is mystifying.

There is a difference between "fear of monsters" and acknowledging that monsters exist and playing in accordance with their likelihood of being there, which is what I attempt to do.You are absolutely wrong on pricing out a flop draw when that results in being pot committed and unable to price out a draw on the turn.

[trystero 0]

This is the key here imho..In a $100 sng, I would be more apt to agree with you Copernicus..But this is a $10 sng and its the 2nd hand..I wish I had the hand history but basically on the 2nd hand of one I played yesterday, the board was something like K 10 xxx 2 clubs, and someone with Jack 7 clubs decided to stick it all in there on the river and get called by KQ..This kind of play isn't abnormal..I wouldn't be suprised one bit if the villian had Ace 7, Ace 5, Queen 9, 10, Jack, King, Ace...There are just too many donkeys in $10 stt to give Villain credit for beating our overpair here

But what's the point of a strategy forum if we solve problems with this reasoning: 'it's a $10 SNG, so top pair's a decent possibility and he's just donking off his chips.' Aren't we trying to think critically about these hands?I would argue that unless we have a read on an opponent we should assume that he is at least as rational and skilled as we are, the limit notwithstanding. Everyone here, I'm sure, has played with huge donks at higher limits and very good players at lower limits. I guess you could go by percentages - most $10 players are worse than most $100 players - but I don't think anyone really knows how much worse. I stand by my original conclusion to fold this hand, but I would change my mind if I knew villain was not very good at Texas Hold 'Em.

[Actuary 3]

You are absolutely wrong on pricing out a flop draw when that results in being pot committed and unable to price out a draw on the turn.

if the flop bet is big enough then the implied odds are killed.you don't have to worry about being outplayed on the turn/river either.I find too many cards can kill the turn action because you (in general) put the opponents on every possible draw. Let them call an over bet as an underdog

[throwemaway 0]

But what's the point of a strategy forum if we solve problems with this reasoning: 'it's a $10 SNG, so top pair's a decent possibility and he's just donking off his chips.' Aren't we trying to think critically about these hands?I would argue that unless we have a read on an opponent we should assume that he is at least as rational and skilled as we are, the limit notwithstanding. Everyone here, I'm sure, has played with huge donks at higher limits and very good players at lower limits. I guess you could go by percentages - most $10 players are worse than most $100 players - but I don't think anyone really knows how much worse. I stand by my original conclusion to fold this hand, but I would change my mind if I knew villain was not very good at Texas Hold 'Em.

When I start losing hands like this because my opponents are competent and have 2 pair or better...then I'll jump on the "fold KK on a non scary board" bandwagon..Until then, I'll keep doubling up against donkeysIf you read the guide on $20 180, it is emphasized to push your big hands because you will get paid off, even if your blatantally obvious about it..The same goes for $10 sngs..People just don't know how to fold TPGK, and punishing them w/ overpairs and the like is +EV..In this example, we very well maybe beat...It kinda goes without saying, but a lot of people only post hands where they lose...A kind of "where did I go wrong?" or "how can i get away from this" mentality...I'm not saying its right/wrong, but thats just the fact