13 replies to this topic

[Emptyeye]

Just what it says in the topic title.*********** # 3 **************PokerStars Game #1381162478: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2005/03/19 - 12:24:49 (ET)Table 'Alsuhail' Seat #2 is the buttonSeat 1: MoBetta-Etta ($1.69 in chips) Seat 2: KaaapX ($0.36 in chips) Seat 3: Waddy555 ($0.84 in chips) Seat 4: stevant ($2.87 in chips) Seat 5: tjason1 ($4.89 in chips) Seat 6: Merkin55 ($2 in chips) Seat 7: Myranim ($2.42 in chips) Seat 8: frogstrngler ($2.70 in chips) Seat 9: popivince ($1.88 in chips) Waddy555: posts small blind $0.01stevant: posts big blind $0.02Merkin55: posts big blind $0.02*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Myranim [Ks Kc 3h 3s]tjason1: calls $0.02Merkin55: checks Myranim: raises $0.02 to $0.04frogstrngler: calls $0.04popivince: calls $0.04MoBetta-Etta: folds KaaapX: calls $0.04Waddy555: calls $0.03stevant: calls $0.02tjason1: calls $0.02Merkin55: calls $0.02All right, two pocket pairs and a second-high flush possibility. I make the minimum raise as a pot-builder--big enough that with a lot of callers I can jam it big time if I hit, small enough that I can easily dump the hand if I don't hit. I'm looking mainly to hit the set of kings, and fully intend to follow the "no set, no bet" school of thought if I miss.*** FLOP *** [9d Kh 8d]tjason1 said, "almost the same exact hand, I had the other flush draw though :("Waddy555: checks stevant: checks tjason1: checks Merkin55: bets $0.10Myranim: raises $0.52 to $0.62frogstrngler: folds popivince: calls $0.62KaaapX: folds Waddy555: folds stevant: calls $0.62tjason1: folds Merkin55: calls $0.52All right! I have problems, though. I've hit my top set and have the nuts for now, but there's a flush draw (Which I don't have) and various straight draws (Which I also don't have) out there. I raise the size of the pot, mainly to try to force the draws out and take it down right there.*** TURN *** [9d Kh 8d] [2s]stevant: checks Merkin55: checks Myranim: bets $1.76 and is all-inpopivince: folds stevant: folds Merkin55: calls $1.34 and is all-inPretty much the same concept here. An apparent blank (for now, though it does introduce more straight draws) falls on the turn, and I push in, again attempting to take the pot down and force out draws. as you can see, it doesn't quite work.So, not knowing the results, would you have done anything differently?

[KDawgCometh]

you should've limped PF. Your hand is only goos for sets, which you hit. I'm guessing that the caller is on either a straight draw or flush draw

[wrto4556]

You have the best hand possible....this is a silly question.

[KDawgCometh]

wrto4556 said:

You have the best hand possible....this is a silly question.

yeah, I forgot to say this too

[Emptyeye]

Okay, mainly I was just making sure on that. I ended up winning the hand, and will say no more on that. I must say, if micro-limit PLO is always this easy (My experience is it's filled with Hold 'Em players who overvalue small-mid pocket pairs), I may have found my new game of choice.

[Swift_Psycho]

Exactly how did the deuce on the turn introduce more straight draws?

[Emptyeye]

Whoops.Not exactly sure. I think I was thinking that the river card--3d--was already out there when I wrote that. Yeah, ignore that, I'm an idiot (And this is why I ask for advice).

[JaysonWeber]

Is it normal to play K K 3 3 out of blinds? Perhaps im playing too tight? But I crush micro-limit Hi/Lo....Then again this is Omaha Hi... so maybe thats where im looking at it wrong.

[Emptyeye]

Yeah, I don't think I'd play said hand in hi-lo, due to lack of scooping opportunities. That's why I've decided to stick to Omaha hi...so I don't have to worry about that sort of thing (My 60% or whatever it was seeing the flop percentage in hi/lo convinced me I lacked the patience to be a winning player at that game, at any level).

[KDawgCometh]

JaysonWeber said:

Is it normal to play K K 3 3 out of blinds?  Perhaps im playing too tight?  But I crush micro-limit Hi/Lo....Then again this is Omaha Hi... so maybe thats where im looking at it wrong.

well, kinda. Its much better to limp with this hand as its worthless if you don't hit a set or a flush draw with the A on the board. Its better to be tight then loose in PLO more often than not

[TJ_Eckleburg]

I don't claim to be even a good omaha player... but is KK33 really even a playable hand? To me, it incorporates two of the biggest leaks that weak omaha players have: overvaluing stranded big pocket pairs, and 2nd place flush draws. As the hardcore omaha players say... nothing will get you in trouble faster in omaha than flopping the nut straight, or drawing to king-high flushes.Just my opinion...

[Emptyeye]

TJ_Eckleburg said:

I don't claim to be even a good omaha player... but is KK33 really even a playable hand?  To me, it incorporates two of the biggest leaks that weak omaha players have:  overvaluing stranded big pocket pairs, and 2nd place flush draws.  As the hardcore omaha players say... nothing will get you in trouble faster in omaha than flopping the nut straight, or drawing to king-high flushes.Just my opinion...

Well, as I said, I was mainly playing to hit the set of kings, which I did (Obviously I look like an idiot if I miss, so I definitely got lucky in that regard. On the other hand, I simply check-fold if I miss it, and wait for another chance to hit a monster). To me, big pocket pairs in Omaha (As in jacks or above) are like small pocket pairs in Hold 'Em--great if I hit a set, dump it if I don't. The fact that one of the kings was suited barely merited consideration as far I was concerned--if I pick up that flush draw AND the ace of the suit is on the board, I'll bet it or whatnot. If not, I'm not going to pursue it further, because as you said, drawing to second-best hands is a good way to get yourself in trouble.Also consider that I play micro-limit, which from my experience is filled with Hold 'Em players who haven't adjusted to the fact that you'll get killed if you try and play Omaha the same way as you play Hold 'Em (Suffice to say that given the board at the time of his call, my opponent's hand in this instance was even worse than mine in terms of both made hands and arguably redraws). The point about pocket pairs is one fine example; I love small pocket pairs in Hold 'Em because I can hit a baby set and likely be golden. Hitting a baby set in Omaha, on the other hand, tends to just lead to trouble, either from an overset or some other huge draw.Now, should I have RAISED with the hand? Maybe not,and the popular opinion seems to be no. As I pointed out, it was mainly to build the pot in case I hit my set--I wanted to be able to protect it in raw monetary terms instead of just pot odds. Nonetheless, it's something I'll definitely consider in the future.

[TJ_Eckleburg]

It's just that my (amateur) experience with either Omaha high or O/8 has shown me that the real moneymaking hands in omaha are highly coordinated hands. I definitely would not have raised preflop. It's too much of a hold'em mentality, the whole "I have a high pocket pair, I'm probably ahead of anybody else heads up, so I'll add value to the pot." You clearly stated that this isn't why you raised, I'm merely pointing out what it seems a lot of weak omaha players are thinking when they do something like that.Good times on the set though. Top set is always fun. I probably don't know enough about omaha to be posting intelligently anyway.

[Emptyeye]

...I lack the patience for Omaha 8, mainly because the hand I posted here (And hands like them) is marginalized even further in that game. And yeah, I see where you're coming from, but I still stand by my reasoning of "I'll throw a minimum raise here, not necessarily because this is the hand to end all hands, but because I'll likely have the post-flop nuts if I hit my set, and I want to be able to protect it". As it turned out, someone bet into me on the flop, which made most of the argument irrelevant. But anyway, I don't claim to be an expert Omaha player myself (And as mentioned, I'm just terrible at Omaha hi/lo), but I do like to think I know enough to take (Relatively) large sums of money from micro-limit players who try and play it like Hold 'Em.EDIT: And yes, hitting top set is fun. It's even better when you flop top set, turn top boat, and river your completely unnecessary quads for good measure (And get called all the way by someone who flopped two-pair and turned a smaller boat), as I did some other time.