2/4nl Shorthanded

[troyomac 0]

This is a hand between Spence (a poster here) and me. We discuseed it afterwards, and we wondered if his call on the flop was a good call or a bad call. My image is super aggressive preflop, raising to 15 probably twice on average out of every 5 hands, and 9 out of 10 times making a continuation bet on the flop of 2/3 the pot. My image of Spence (symbolic0) is tight preflop, not raising often. And usually has a hand when he bets or calls post flop. (I think he knows that I know this). Hand 848682577, Started at 8/14/2006 1:59 AMTable 'Mombasa': $4-$4 No Limit HE (Real)Seat 0: seth cohen x ($515.70 in chips) Seat 6: troyomac ($1,300 in chips) Seat 7: Symbolic0 ($620 in chips) (on the button)Seat 8: PhiX174 ($439.80 in chips) *** Blind Bet Round *** : Dealt to troyomac: QhDealt to troyomac: KdPhiX174 : Post Blind ($2)seth cohen x : Post Blind ($4)*** Pre-Flop *** : troyomac : Bet ($15)Symbolic0 : Call ($15)PhiX174 : Foldseth cohen x : Fold*** Flop *** : Qc 10c Ac troyomac : Bet ($25)Symbolic0 : Call ($25)*** Turn *** : [ Qc 10c Ac ] 6s troyomac : CheckSymbolic0 : Check*** River *** : [ Qc 10c Ac 6s ] 2c troyomac : CheckSymbolic0 : Check*** SUMMARY ***Pot: $84 | Rake: $2Board: [ Qc 10c Ac 6s 2c ]seth cohen x lost $4 troyomac lost $40 Shows [ Qh Kd ] (a pair of Queens)Symbolic0 bet $40, collected $84, net $44 Shows [ 4d 4c ] (a flush, Ace high)PhiX174 lost $2edited my post to not show my cards.

[iggymcfly 0]

The only reason to call the flop is to try to take it away on the turn if you check. If he's not going to do that, then I really hate the flop call.

[DonkSlayer 1]

I just, wow, ugh...His flop call is awful because he didn't bet the turn when you checked. You don't call a flop like that unless it doesn't matter what you have in your hand b/c you intend to steal the pot at a later time. He had position so I understand pf, but man, let it go...I'm also guessing that you completely shut down on the turn yourself because "he must have something" when he called preflop and on the flop. Ask yourself these things:1. Does his call mean an Ace? What hand would he have called me with preflop, but not reraised, that hit this board harder than mine?2. Do I feel I have outs to a redraw here?3. If I bet the turn, will he fold a better hand? Will he raise with a better hand?Will he call with a worse one?Sounds like the flat-call really got into your head and you shut down very prematurely when you were far and away ahead.EDIT: Hey Iggy, you're a smart guy. Post more hands that you win so I can see your good play, ok?

[crankin 0]

The only reason to call the flop is to try to take it away on the turn if you check. If he's not going to do that, then I really hate the flop call.

Agreed

[troyomac 0]

When he called my flop bet, I was pretty sure he had an ace with a weak kicker. In hindsight, a bet on the turn would have given me the info i needed as to whether to continue with the hand or not. How much do you bet on the turn? half pot?

[Jordan 1]

yea, i dont see why he calls this and then checks the turn and the river.granted, you're supposedly quite aggressive...this still isn't a flop to go to war with with two 4s.- Jordan

[Spence 0]

Might as well put in my 2 cents. I asked him to post this hand because I thought it was a good hand to debate in here.I 100% expected people to say my play was horrible, and I could have very well played that hand bad, but let me give some reasoning.I knew he was very aggressive pre-flop and on flop, and he also had the biggest chipstack at the table, and I was sitting on over $600.I figured I was probably behind on the flop, but knew if he didn't have a club he would not fire another shot out on the turn. I knew I had a tight image having only showing good hands. When the turn of 6s came out and he checked I contemplated firing out a bet, and trying to take it down there, but I was 90% sure my clubs were good, and if a harmless 4 came on the river I figured I might be able to extract a few more chips after showing the check behind.If he does have an A, he will call my turn bet. if I knew what he had I would have bet on the turn more than likely, because theres a very good chance he would fold, and if the 4 does come I wont be getting much money out of him. Thats quite results oriented thinking though.Overall I was looking more at getting more money than what was in the pot, or winning at showdown if the poker god's were nice enough to give me a club.

[troyomac 0]

But with all those clubs out there. Even if you hit a 4, the only one paying someone off is you thinking your set is gold, against my flush. Meaning, the only way I would have stuck in a fair amount of money on the hand, is if I had a flush. You're not getting the implied odds you think you are with those 2 outs.

[Spence 0]

I'm not saying an astronomical amount of chips. I'm talking simply $70-100, i also had 9 flush outs, and who says you have anything on your continuation bet?Not many people check a flush on the turn and river, when I checked behind on the turn.You bet out on the river, I call, hoping to swipe off a bluff attempt, I don't raise with my set if I hit it on that board, unless you bet something like 1/5th or 1/4th of pot. Then I'd raise to about half pot, if you come over the top I fold, and I give you props for inducing the bet on the end.

[troyomac 0]

you can be pretty sure on my continuation bet, that I have either a pair higher than yours or a better fllush draw.like they said, if you're calling my flop bet. you should bet when i show weakness on the turn.

[Zach6668 513]

you can be pretty sure on my continuation bet, that I have either a pair higher than yours or a better fllush draw.like they said, if you're calling my flop bet. you should bet when i show weakness on the turn.

Pretty much sums up the whole hand.If you are calling with 44 here, it's to bluff the turn.There's no other value in a call. I doubt our FD is good often enough.

[Spence 0]

fair enough. Thanks for the input. I agree I played the hand week. No sense trying to explain it anymore i'll be more aggressive when that spot comes up again if I indeed call.