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Ethnic Profiling


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#1 ohen

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 07:18 AM

Daniel's comments in his latest blog regarding airport security in the United States warrant a little discussion. Is he suggesting that the type of racial or ethnic profiling be only confined to males of Arabic origin who appear to be somewhat less than presentable and only be carried out in airports? Or would his suggestions extend to people of other races in venues other than airports? For example, if I am an African-American male driving an expensive car, should the police be able to stop me without any cause and search my car without probably cause because I fit the profile of someone who a) may have stolen that expensive vehicle or B) may be transporting illicit drugs? Or if I am a Hispanic male (or female) walking alongside a highway in El Paso, should the border patrol be able to stop and check my ID without any other reason than the fact that I fit the profile of an illegal alien in the United States? Or, I am Arabic and walking across Memorial Bridge in DC and decide to take photographs of National Airport, the State Department and Lincoln Memorial? Should the police be able to confiscate my camera and possibly detain me because I'm Arabic and taking these pictures. Let's say I'm an Eastern European, say a Romanian woman, coming into the United States. Given the amount of women coming into the US from Eastern Europe for the purposes of engaging in acts of prostituion, should the INS temporarily detain, strip search and question for hours any attractive woman between the ages of 18-40 coming into this country from Romania? If Daniel were to have relatives still in Romainia and they wanted to visit him, would he be happy if they were treated as such?And if Daniel is suggesting that racial/ethnic profiling be confined to only Middle Eastern males traveling through airports, will that accomplish anything legitimate other than making ordinary folks feel secure? Yes, airports in Isreal are increadibly safe, but the citizens of Isreal are STILL the subjected to more terrorist attacks than any other country in the world. Airports may be "safe" in Israel, but buses, restaurants, malls and virtually any other public venues are not immune from a suicide bomber at any given time DESPITE the fact that Isreal's policy of racial/ethnic profiling goes far beyond the airports. Having lived in Turkey for the first 18 years of my live, I can say from experience that terrorist attacks are not prevented by curbing the individual liberties of a particular group. Despite the Turkish governments efforts to curb such rights (which included racial profiling in airports as well as virtually any other facet of society), Turkey lost over 30,000 of its citizens to terrorist attcks in the 1980s. Terrorism began to level off and ultimately fade in Turkey once the government changed some of its domestic as well as foreign policies dealing with ethnic groups whose extremists factions perpetrated the terrorism. Anyway, just my two cents on the issue

#2 JadeTiger

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 07:33 AM

I think DN's point in the whole issue is that he sees Airport security spending a lot of time searching through the backpacks of toddlers and less time searching through the luggage of individuals more suspect. This does not come down to race it comes down to individuals who look suspect as opposed to those who dont look suspect at all. If EVERYONE was searched equally I dont see DN complaining but it seems that those that look suspect are being sent through with no problem and the little toddlers are being stopped and searched for whatever reason. I think that its a good point because if someone walks into an airport looking suspicious they should be searched, whatever their race or ethnicity. There are standards in society that are in peoples mind whether right or wrong. If you walk by a man in a nice suit sitting on top of his brief case on the side of a building in downtown Manhattan, its probably safe to say he is a business man on his way to/from the office. But if that same man were dressed in raggedy clothing and hadnt shaved for what seems like weeks, we would all assume he is homeless looking for a handout. Reality suggests that the first man could just as easily be homeless looking for a handout in the only clothes he owns. In the case of airport security you have people who are there to perform searches at random but also those looking for signs of suspect individuals. I think when those individuals are noticed, they should be searched. Maybe we are hypersensitive because of 9/11 but id rather be too careful than not careful enough. Is it right that we have to do this at all? I wish we didnt, but we live in a world of crazy people who do crazy things. I know for a fact these random searches isnt the right answer but its all we have right now and so at least it should be done right.
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#3 Alina

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 07:36 AM

Of late DN is showing himself to be someone with a rather limited grasp of general issues as evidenced by his comments on the merits of the WPT lawsuit. However, his casual advocacy of ethnic profiling with apparently no idea of the wider issues and that it may be controversial beggars belief (or maybe not given the now worldwide stereoptype of the blinkered American-he doesn't seem Canadian). I recall one piece he wrote where he admitted that his dedication to poker meant he had not managed to keep up with other issues (unlike previously) and he was unable to hold non-poker conversation. This problem seems to persist. Although, he would never express it in these crass terms, isn't what he is advocating essentially "if you're white you're probably all right. But if not...".I await to see if he would advocate segregated planes next.
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#4 ohen

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 07:43 AM

View PostJadeTiger, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 7:33 AM, said:

I think DN's point in the whole issue is that he sees Airport security spending a lot of time searching through the backpacks of toddlers and less time searching through the luggage of individuals more suspect. This does not come down to race it comes down to individuals who look suspect as opposed to those who dont look suspect at all.
It does not come down to race? Daniel makes the following statement in his blog:If you are a 26 year old male and your name is Mohammed Ali Akbar, and you show up at the airport unshaven, with bloodshot eyes, and a crazed look on your face, you should simply expect the inconvenience of having your bags checked as well as having to answer a few questionsSo if your name is Mike Smith, a white American, and you have a crazed look with bloodshot eyes because you've been playing poker all night, they can let you through, but if your name is Mohammed Ali Akbar (or for that matter Hasan Habib,Ihsan "Sammy" Farha, Kassim "Freddy" Deeb, Daniel Alai etc. and you have been sitting at the same table with Daniel playing poker and you look tired), it's OK for them to stop you. How does that NOT come down to race or ethnicity? Let's not be so naive.

#5 nutzbuster

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    Point taken....

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 07:53 AM

It is what it is.Jacking up Old ladies, Nuns and Kids with hello Kitty back packs IS absurd!Last time I looked it wasn't Johhny White toast blowing up a plane.Get real folks.



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#6 ohen

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 07:57 AM

View Postnutzbuster, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 7:53 AM, said:

It is what it is.Jacking up Old ladies, Nuns and Kids with hello Kitty back packs IS absurd!Last time I looked it wasn't Johhny White toast blowing up a plane.Get real folks.
That's a load of crap. Remember Richard Reid, the "shoe bomber". Was he Middle Eastern or Arabic? I guess you must have forgotten about Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols as well. I guess they weren't "Johnny White" either. You are either incredibly ignorant or have a selective memory.

#7 nutzbuster

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:04 AM

View Postohen, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 8:57 AM, said:

That's a load of crap. Remember Richard Reid, the "shoe bomber". Was he Middle Eastern or Arabic? I guess you must have forgotten about Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols as well. I guess they weren't "Johnny White" either. You are either incredibly ignorant or have a selective memory.
You are comparing the one hit wonders with the global infestation of fundamentalist extreemist terrorism?YOU need to pull your head out of the arabic desert sand.Have fun at your next rally...



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#8 JadeTiger

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:05 AM

View Postnutzbuster, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 10:53 AM, said:

It is what it is.Jacking up Old ladies, Nuns and Kids with hello Kitty back packs IS absurd!Last time I looked it wasn't Johhny White toast blowing up a plane.Get real folks.
This is the point. Unfortunately it is those of arabic decent that are going to get more heat because of the acts of 9/11 and the threats of the Taliban. It is not that these individuals are being handcuffed and forced to be cavity searched. It is that they fit a particular suspicion that the feds are looking for. Is it right? Probably not, but how else are you going to keep 9/11 from happening again? I dont know the answer and from the looks of it, neither does the government. Is Mike Smith capable being a terrorist? Of course he is. But unfortunately we dont know of a large, well-organized group of white American males making terrorist threats on America. If we did, it would be interesting to see how the government would handle it but we dont, so this is how it is being handled until someone comes up with a better idea.
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#9 ohen

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:13 AM

View Postnutzbuster, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 8:04 AM, said:

YOU need to pull your head out of the arabic desert sand.
Wow. That just goes to show you what an ignorant racist idiot you are. That and calling the McVeighs and Nichols a one-hit wonder as if this country is not filled with right-wing government extremists. I guess you have never heard of the countless times abortion doctors have been assasinated, or all the groups that use Waco and Ruby Ridge as government propoganda to recruit men like McVeigh. If you really think McVeigh is a one-hit onder, you're living in another world.And Jade, you have got to be kidding me when you say the US government is not aware of any white groups making terrorist threats on America. I suggest that you do a little reaseach, even on the internet, before you limit all terrorist threats to the US as those being made by those groups of Middle Eastern origin.

#10 nutzbuster

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:16 AM

View PostJadeTiger, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 9:05 AM, said:

This is the point. Unfortunately it is those of arabic decent that are going to get more heat because of the acts of 9/11 and the threats of the Taliban. It is not that these individuals are being handcuffed and forced to be cavity searched. It is that they fit a particular suspicion that the feds are looking for. Is it right? Probably not, but how else are you going to keep 9/11 from happening again? I dont know the answer and from the looks of it, neither does the government. Is Mike Smith capable being a terrorist? Of course he is. But unfortunately we dont know of a large, well-organized group of white American males making terrorist threats on America. If we did, it would be interesting to see how the government would handle it but we dont, so this is how it is being handled until someone comes up with a better idea.
Exactly. As soon as the "White redheads with freckles brigade" begins blowing crap up then we will start to profile them too. But until then, the arabic looking folks will get the stink eye, like it or not, that is just the way it is.You PC 'rs make me sick. We are at war folks, don't ever forget it. And this has little to do with Bush or Iraq. We were attacked long before that. And a certain group of folks fitting a specific ethnic profile have been to blame all along. PERIOD. Wake up and smell the coffee.

View Postohen, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 9:13 AM, said:

Wow. That just goes to show you what an ignorant racist idiot you are. That and calling the McVeighs and Nichols a one-hit wonder as if this country is not filled with right-wing government extremists. I guess you have never heard of the countless times abortion doctors have been assasinated, or all the groups that use Waco and Ruby Ridge as government propoganda to recruit men like McVeigh. If you really think McVeigh is a one-hit onder, you're living in another world.
You are mixing apples with oranges to make your stupid pointless point. You can't see that?



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#11 ohen

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:23 AM

Well, as George Orwell wrote, ignorance is bliss. I doubt that I can have an intelligent discussion with some who tells me to get my head out of the Arabic sand. At any rate, racial profiling is, utilized in airports as well as other facets of this society, so the suggestion of whether or not it should be used is basically a moot point.I also made the point that using racial profiling in airports will not solve the terrorism issue as evidenced by the example of Isreal. But I guess it tends to make people feel more comfortable in the airport when they see an Arabic looking guy being asked some extra questions prior to boarding. So if we want to ensure that folks like nutzbuster can sleep in peace on board knowing that Mr. Mohammed Al Akbar will not blow up the plane he's on, let's go ahead and stop Mr. Habib and Mr. Farha at the airports.

#12 JadeTiger

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:27 AM

View Postohen, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 11:13 AM, said:

Wow. That just goes to show you what an ignorant racist idiot you are. That and calling the McVeighs and Nichols a one-hit wonder as if this country is not filled with right-wing government extremists. I guess you have never heard of the countless times abortion doctors have been assasinated, or all the groups that use Waco and Ruby Ridge as government propoganda to recruit men like McVeigh. If you really think McVeigh is a one-hit onder, you're living in another world.And Jade, you have got to be kidding me when you say the US government is not aware of any white groups making terrorist threats on America. I suggest that you do a little reaseach, even on the internet, before you limit all terrorist threats to the US as those being made by those groups of Middle Eastern origin.
Go back and read what I said. I said "large, well-organized group of white American males making terrorist threats on America."The point was to make the comparison to the Taliban and its ability to successfully infiltrate the US and cause the damage it did. That is a REAL threat. Are the other 'white' terrorist groups a threat? of course. I never argued otherwise, but the events of 9/11, we can all agree, was a new level of terrorism. They stirred some sh!t up doing what they did and so the government wants to make sure it doesnt happen again. I said repeatedly its not the best way to deal with this issue but until something else is implemented its what is going to have to be dealt with.
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#13 Vatche

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:30 AM

Sorry DN, but what you wrote today is very ignorant and false...i thought you were a poker player Daniel, what happened to second level thinking??any Arab that wants to blow up a plane is not going to try to walk on a plane with a huge beard and "crazy blood shot eyes" after 911...they are going to be clean shaven and presentable...FYI...george bush is a bigger terrorist than bin laden and sadam hussein combined, last time i checked, he wasnt sporting no beard.

#14 JadeTiger

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:32 AM

View PostVatche, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 11:30 AM, said:

Sorry DN, but what you wrote today is very ignorant and false...i thought you were a poker player Daniel, what happened to second level thinking??any Arab that wants to blow up a plane is not going to try to walk on a plane with a huge beard and "crazy blood shot eyes" after 911...they are going to be clean shaven and prsentable...FYI...george bush is a bigger terrorist than bin laden and sadam hussein combined, last time i checked, he wasnt sporting no beard.
I think you've killed your credability with this comment. That doesnt even make sense. If you are going to make comments like that, at least provide an explanation so you dont look like a complete moron.
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#15 Alina

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:34 AM

View PostVatche, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 8:30 AM, said:

Sorry DN, but what you wrote today is very ignorant...
What's new.
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#16 Vatche

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:42 AM

View PostJadeTiger, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 9:32 AM, said:

I think you've killed your credability with this comment. That doesnt even make sense. If you are going to make comments like that, at least provide an explanation so you dont look like a complete moron.
that so called Christian unjustly went to war and thousands of arabs and americans are dying for his own personal greed.

#17 nutzbuster

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:44 AM

Oh boy...Here we go.Never mix politics and poker, I always say.Vatche, I like you man, but you are way off with that comment. I will NOT get drawn into a long debate as it will ultimately fail to sway anyone to one side or the other. And no, Bush is not my hero but I am all for anyone willing to kick a terrorist's @ss.I was in the military and still have close ties there. I have 2 good friends who are ex-CIA and are currenlty serving as Federal Air Marshals. Our family lost 2 friends in the twin towers. I lost a cousin in Afhganistan. The reason I tell you this is that first and foremost I am a live and let live kinda guy and normally the first to make a joke. But this issue is a source of great passion for me because of the facts I listed above. And there is far more going on than any of you will ever know. And it AIN'T about oil....I am done here. Death to all terrorists, white, brown, green, black or otherwise.



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#18 JadeTiger

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:45 AM

View PostVatche, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 11:42 AM, said:

that so called Christian unjustly went to war and thousands of arabs and americans are dying for his own personal greed.
Ah..now i see. Your POV is so much more lucid now. So you think all those American soldiers are terrorists as well then? Based on your logic, that would be the only reasonable assumption.
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#19 wilheldp

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:48 AM

View PostJadeTiger, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 12:32 PM, said:

I think you've killed your credability with this comment. That doesnt even make sense. If you are going to make comments like that, at least provide an explanation so you dont look like a complete moron.
I'm not so sure about the Saddam Hussein comparison, but orders issued by George Bush has led to the deaths of far more people than have the orders of Osama bin Laden.BTW, in case you were wondering, the terrorists have already won the war on terror. The whole point of terrorism is to make people live in fear and give up freedoms in order to feel more safe. Ever since 9/11, the general population of America has been more than willing to give up privacy rights and their right to not be illegally searched by the government because they feel more safe by these activities. In giving up these freedoms, we have submitted to the will of the terrorists and given them victory after victory. Meanwhile, George Bush and company continue to attack innocent and sovereign nations either because they harbor terrorists within their border or because they are run by dictators. Hmmm...if Saddam was evil enough to justify a war, then how come we haven't attack Cuba or North Korea (again) or Venezuela? Oh yeah...we haven't fabricated enough evidence to attack them yet.

#20 Vatche

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:51 AM

View PostJadeTiger, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 9:45 AM, said:

Ah..now i see. Your POV is so much more lucid now. So you think all those American soldiers are terrorists as well then? Based on your logic, that would be the only reasonable assumption.
no, the soldiers are just doing their jobs...theyre the victims in this.i reread my post and i dont know how you came up with that assumption.

View Postnutzbuster, on Monday, August 14th, 2006, 9:44 AM, said:

Death to all terrorists, white, brown, green, black or otherwise.
QFTsorry to hear about your 2 friends nutz.




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