9 replies to this topic

[Wily]

This is a question about limp-raising in tournaments. I've seen it done a number of times with very premium hands, but I personally do not do it. I'd think that the situation would have to hit a very specific situation for me to try it-1) Late in a tournament, or on the final table.2) Holding AA, KK, or maybe QQ.3) In early position.4) An aggressive table, with a few active blind stealers between me and the blinds.I think that the risk of having the SB and BB and another player in the hand are too great for me to try a limp raise and having other players raise. I would prefer making a standard raise (2.5 X the BB), since I do this commonly enough to steal also, and any hand that would be willing to go all in will probably reraise me anyway. I also think that limp raisers often look very suspicious, unless they have a very loose image at the table and would try a steal raise.So, does anyone use this technique regardless? I am thinking of trying it the next final table I get to on FTP, and some input would be great.Thanks,Yang

[Emptyeye]

I don't like it, mainly because it screams "HELLO I HAVE A LARGE POCKET PAIR FOLD PLEASE".Like you, I'd just bring it in for a standard raise.

[Swift_Psycho]

Emptyeye said:

I don't like it, mainly because it screams "HELLO I HAVE A LARGE POCKET PAIR FOLD PLEASE".Like you, I'd just bring it in for a standard raise.

Agreed.

[Smasharoo]

I don't like it, mainly because it screams "HELLO I HAVE A LARGE POCKET PAIR FOLD PLEASE". How is that possibly a bad thing?

[Emptyeye]

Smasharoo said:

How is that possibly a bad thing?

Well, if everyone folds, it's not, I suppose.However, depending on how good you are at getting away from your hand, I now have a license to call with basically any two cards I want. Unless you (The limp-reraiser) are good enough to mix up your play, I can pretty much put you on one of four hands, and more than likely two--Aces, Kings, maybe Queens, and MAYBE AK. So knowing this information, if I also know what type of player you are, as mentioned above, I can call you with any two cards I hold and see if the flop helps me. If you're incapable of getting away from your huge pocket pair on an underflop, I can take a chance that I'll hit two-pair, trips, etc. and can thus probably break you for your entire stack if I do hit (Remember, this is NL). On the other hand, if you're the type of player who prides yourself on being able to make the "big laydown", I can pull some ballsy move on an underflop that might get you to lay down your huge pair, even if the flop actually missed me completely.

[Awful]

Emptyeye said:

Smasharoo said:

How is that possibly a bad thing?

Well, if everyone folds, it's not, I suppose.However, depending on how good you are at getting away from your hand, I now have a license to call with basically any two cards I want. Unless you (The limp-reraiser) are good enough to mix up your play, I can pretty much put you on one of four hands, and more than likely two--Aces, Kings, maybe Queens, and MAYBE AK.

Well, the reraise made when limp-reraising is usually HUGE. You'd need to be playing 100+bb stacks for implied odds to work out vs. even someone who says "I'll push the flop blind". Furthermore, you're in the middle of a raiser and a reraiser or behind a raiser without the reraiser's action known to you, with the "any 2" you want to call with, meaning you'll be facing a possible re-re-raise, likely all-in, or you are calling a raise with junk on the chance that the limper will limp-raise to give you your read.Finally, winning just the blinds with AA/KK/QQ/AK is FINE. I mentioned this in another thread: if noone can play with you when you get that hand, you got unlucky. It's a much nicer form of unlucky to WIN the blinds than to LOSE A BIG POT when the BB special flops 2 pair.

[TJ_Eckleburg]

First of all... I don't like this play in a general sort of way. It's too easy to put someone on the hand... and I think that advertising diminishes the EV you get from receiving those cards.If you MUST do it, you should only do it with AA or KK (not QQ or AK). The reason for this is if you look at the EV of AA, KK, QQ, or AK against any one random holding, the AA and the KK are an order of magnitude higher than QQ or AK. I think the reason for that is that QQ has to not flop TWO overcards (as opposed to 1 with KK, BIG difference) and that AK is not ahead of 22 on a Q high flop.I think it's far more profitable to play the hand straight up... i.e. bring it in for a goodly raise. That way they tend to undervalue your hand, whereas limp-re-raising immediately (in your opponents views) narrows the field of possible hands you have considerably.

[tekku7181]

it can be a great play in nl esp tournaments..

[Schneider]

I like it for one reason. Above it was mentioned that winning the blinds/limpers isn't that bad of a thing.So if you're UTG and you limp with AA, a few people call and the CO raises it up 4/5x BB. It makes it around to you and you push all in. Any sensible player has to put you on KK or AA. So instead of winning 2-3 BB you're winning 6-7. If they call you're a huge favorite.If nobody raises...tough luck. Play your hand right and dont be afraid to fold it.

[Emptyeye]

Schneider said:

So if you're UTG and you limp with AA, a few people call and the CO raises it up 4/5x BB.  It makes it around to you and you push all in.  Any sensible player has to put you on KK or AA.  So instead of winning 2-3 BB you're winning 6-7.  If they call you're a huge favorite.

I should point out that IF I were to make this play, I would do it as stated here--limp and reraise ALL-IN. Anything less will lead to trouble, for the reasons I stated above. Sure, I could push in and possibly get called by two random cards that hit a miracle flop anyway, but at least this way I'm taking away any implied odds for them to do so (As all the money is in pre-flop)