Terrible Session Part #2

[Captain_Walt 0]

Yesterday I had the worst session I have EVER EVER had. Some of it was due in part to bad beats but other just to my own terrible play. I was sitting at a two tables that each had a player with nearly identical stats. 55/15/4 over 200+ hands. This hand and the following ones I will post the Villain will have stats similar to those (these maniacs had huge stacks and kept flopping aboslute monsters not due to their good play).Spare no mercy and tear this apart... I need a serious thrashing after last night.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)MP1 ($48.15)MP2 ($217)Hero ($196)Button ($103.30)SB ($49)BB ($98.35)UTG ($607.85)UTG+1 ($75.30)Preflop: Hero is CO with J, J. UTG calls $2, 3 folds, Hero raises to $10, 3 folds, UTG calls $8.Flop: ($23) K, 6, A(2 players)UTG checks, Hero checks.Turn: ($23) J(2 players)UTG bets $10, Hero raises to $30, UTG raises to $184, Hero raises to $186, UTG calls $2.River: ($395) T(2 players)Final Pot: $395

[trystero 0]

This hand looks ok. I guess you could say 'what's he leading out with on the turn that isn't beating me,' and then you could say ' a lot of draws like J-10d (but as we find out on the river that's not possible) and K-Q or a slow-played A-K.'

[Captain_Walt 0]

Any feedback at all here? What do we put Villain on given his stats? Should I be leading out for a big bet on the flop? Totally wrong calling this turn bet?

[Scott3705 0]

I'd bet the flop and be very happy to get'em all ino n the turn when I sucked out.

[crankin 0]

Well, some of these really loose-aggressive types will raise a lot with weaker holdings but limp/call with big hands. Over 200 hands, you may or may not have had a chance to see if this villain does so. In any event, it *is* possible that villain has AA, KK, or AK, and was slow-playing it. However, given that villain calls with a *bunch* of hands pre-flop, you could very well have let QT catch up on the turn in a case of serious reverse implied odds.Personally, I think the problem stems from not c-betting this flop. I'd put in a $15 c-bet and see what develops (yes, the flop looks scary for JJ, but HU in-position, you pretty just have to bet at this). If he has AA, KK, or AK, you'll find out right then. If he only has Q-10, he'll likely lay it down, although some villains will take one off here. If he's the latter type, well, then you just got coolered.

[DonkSlayer 1]

I think this board was a little too much for you to go crazy with your set. I would've called the turn and called/raised the river depending on my read at that point and what card came. Not that it was necessary for the villain to push when you raised, but if you get re-raised any amount on the turn, you have very difficult decisions to make then and on the river if you do call. Keep the pot under control with your susceptible hand.

[krup24 0]

don't mind getting them in on the turn here but I like a 3/4 Cbet on the flop.

[fckthis 0]

agree with posts above. Bet flop, but truth is I dont mind checking. Hope AQ wasnt the hand.

[iggymcfly 0]

Just looks like bad luck to me. I certainly wouldn't be folding a set against a 55/15/4 here. If he rivered the straight, you have to brush that **** off. Against anything but a turned straight or better set you got all your money in with way the best of it.For the record, I like the flop check too. Absolutely no reason to bet in that situation.

[Scott3705 0]

For the record, I like the flop check too. Absolutely no reason to bet in that situation.

Of course there is...you raised preflop. Or are we planning on calling off our entire stakc for the rest of the hand?

[crankin 0]

Of course there is...you raised preflop. Or are we planning on calling off our entire stakc for the rest of the hand?

I agree completely. Villain has no way to know that we don't have AK or AQ. Now, if we were OOP, then you could make a case for checking some reasonable percentage of the time. But, in position, I think you have to bet this pretty much every time.

[Zach6668 513]

I agree completely. Villain has no way to know that we don't have AK or AQ. Now, if we were OOP, then you could make a case for checking some reasonable percentage of the time. But, in position, I think you have to bet this pretty much every time.

If you don't bet here, then it's pretty obvious when you've hit your hand because you've bet the flop. Right?

[crankin 0]

If you don't bet here, then it's pretty obvious when you've hit your hand because you've bet the flop. Right?

Pretty much. If you're gonna check this any significant amount of the time, then you've also got to check you're good hands a decent amount of time, and that's not the type of game you really want to play.

[iggymcfly 0]

Villian's likely calling (or raising) with any ace or king, and folding any hand that we're beating. Furthermore, the hands we're beating are usually drawing to between zero and three outs, meaning we don't have to protect our hand.Finally, our flop check in an obvious betting situation is going to scare villian somewhat since it looks so suspicious and will make him very wary that we're slowplaying a set. Usually, villian will either check it down, check the turn and bet the river, or bet the turn and check the river unless he's legitimately strong. In any of these cases, we get more money when we're ahead and put in the same amount or less when we're behind. Very occasionally, villian will make a two shell-bluff here and push us off the hand, but that happens even less often than he hits his two or three outer.Don't get me wrong, I CB almost every flop after raising PF, especially HU. According to PT, I bet almost six times as much as I check in that situation, and most of those checks are in multiway pots. It's just that having a big pair with overcards on board is one of the very few exceptions where checking after a PF raise is the correct move. Villian would have to be really perceptive to pick up on this because it only comes up about once every 200 hands or so.

[Scott3705 0]

Villian's likely calling (or raising) with any ace or king, and folding any hand that we're beating. Furthermore, the hands we're beating are usually drawing to between zero and three outs, meaning we don't have to protect our hand.Finally, our flop check in an obvious betting situation is going to scare villian somewhat since it looks so suspicious and will make him very wary that we're slowplaying a set. Usually, villian will either check it down, check the turn and bet the river, or bet the turn and check the river unless he's legitimately strong. In any of these cases, we get more money when we're ahead and put in the same amount or less when we're behind. Very occasionally, villian will make a two shell-bluff here and push us off the hand, but that happens even less often than he hits his two or three outer.Don't get me wrong, I CB almost every flop after raising PF, especially HU. According to PT, I bet almost six times as much as I check in that situation, and most of those checks are in multiway pots. It's just that having a big pair with overcards on board is one of the very few exceptions where checking after a PF raise is the correct move. Villian would have to be really perceptive to pick up on this because it only comes up about once every 200 hands or so.

As Smash would say, and it's probably one of the only things I've ever agree w/ him on when it comes to NL.... "I'd rather him fold when I bet this with air than try to scrape out some minimal EV when I'm ahead." I have no idea how you would even attempt to play LAG in a Shed game if you're not betting this almost every time regardless of cards. If you wanted to check this as a change up, then that's one thing, but Zach asking about the hand... the standard line is to always bet this flop. regardless of what you had. The counter I know will be... but we have a hand that has showdown value... But if we think our hand is going to have showdown value, we're committing ourselves to calling off a lot of chips w/ two over cards on the board which is usually going to be spewing if you've been playing LAG and people are trying to showdown good hands against you.