15 replies to this topic

[FOOSE1]

Wow . . . I am actually getting sick of the fish!! OK so maybe that's not entirely true. BUT . . . I have had an entire month of bad beats by these fish that has me baffled. That is not an understatement. I have actual proof. I have kept a log of all the hands I have lost big pots with. It lists my starting hands, how much I raised pre-flop, cards on the board after the flop, if I was bet into or not, how much I bet/raised, and what I got beat with. I then went back and plugged in their starting hands and saw what percentage they were before the flop, after the flop and on the turn. It is amazing with what I am being beat with. I have dozens of hands documented where I lost big pots where I was between 70%-80% to win and some as high as 98%. I have seen my bankroll go from $800 (which is what I keep in my online account) down to it's current value of . . . drumroll please . . . $56.25!!!!!!!!! I am really freaking out here. I'm mean you want those fish at your table right??!!!??!!?? It just kills me with what some people play and how they justify playing them. OK so here is just one example, this is not even the worst one, but it is the biggest pot I've lost so far.The table is 1/2 NL Holdem'. The table seems loose/passive. A lot of people to the flop if no one raises and a lot of folding after the flop to a raise. Seems like a very good table to walk over. So I've been playing this table for about 30 minutes. I sat down with $100 and am sitting at about $175 or so after 30 minutes. NOT BAD. I am liking this table. I am not raising or stealing every hand at all. In fact I had one hand where I won $50 with when I hit trips on the flop. I say this so you know that at this point I am not perceived to be a bully. So I am in mid position with A A .Two limpers to me I make it $4 to go. This is a good size bet from what I have seen at this table so far. Guy to my left raises to $10. Guy to his left raises to $20. Everyone folds around to me. I'm wondering what they have and think obviously KK, QQ or AK - you get the idea. I want atleast one of them out of the pot So I raise it to $50. The guy to my left calls, the next guy raises it to $75. So I definately think this guy has KK. This guy has about $200 left in front of him. The other guy has about $70 left in front of him. So it comes to me and I go all-in. The guy to my left goes all-in and the next guy goes all-in without hesitating. I definately have the best hand but it is a little nerve racking to get two callers. I now think they both have pocket pairs and am praying that they don't hit trips on me. So there is now $431.50 in the pot!!!!!! This is a monster pot and I have the best hand!!!!! Here comes the flop: A 2 J . YAY!!!!! I hit trip Aces!!!!!!! . The turn: 10 The river: 3 . I am holding my breathe literally . . . . . . . . . holy crap . . . . . . . . . . no freaking way . . . . . . . . . you have got to be kidding me . . . . . . . . . . . I'm never playing poker again . . . . . . . . . . . . I have to go tell my wife that we can't pay our bills this month. So before I tell you what these guys had let's look at the percentages before the flop, after the flop and on the turn:Before the flop: me = 64.6% Guy #1 = 16.3% Guy # 2 = 19.1%After the flop: me = 78.4% Guy #1 = 4.7% Guy # 2 = 16.9%After the turn: me = 76.2% Guy #1 = 16.7% Guy # 2 = 7.1%I am the overwhelming favorite to win this hand . . . . needless to say Guy # 1 beat me out of this beautiful pot . . . but what did they have you ask to call a $175 all in???????????????Guy # 1 had 9 4 :shock: Guy # 2 had Q 10 :shock: Now, hmmmm, let's all pretend we were the fish that won this hand. So, if I was a fish how would I think about this hand. OK, guy in middle position raises. I will make a play with my 9 4 and re-raise to try to steal the pot. OOPS. The next guy re-raises my re-raise. Hmmmmm, now the original raiser makes a huge re-re-re-raise. Let's call becuase my 9 4 is a monster in fish world. UH-OH, now the next guy has re-re-re-re-raised it again . . . WOW, the original raiser went all-in. Well I think I will call because after all I am ssssssoooooooootttttteeeeeddddddd!!!!!!!!!!!Somebody please help me here. I mean let's face it. We would all kill to have people like this at our table . . . BUT . . . on the other hand this is one of dozens of hands just like this one that have caused me to deplete my entire online bankroll in a matter of less than 30 days. I am at a loss. I can't even understand the thought process to call such a big raise with even the Q 10 , much less the 9 4 .Well that's my sob story for today folks. If any of you wealthy millionaires out there have a tear in your eye and would like to replenish my bankroll, contact me and I can email you pictures of my two beautiful children who are counting on me to win their grocery money this month . . . what's that kids . . . you're hungry . . . come on get in the car. We'll go to the grocery store and see if they are giving out free samples .

[otnemem]

So much is wrong with this hand... Where to start...1) You're playing 1-2 NL and you make it 4 UTG? You're begging to get sucked out. In 1-2 NL I open for at least 12. It's 6X BB, but that's the only way to get people to laydown mediocre hands (and most times they still won't. 2) These players are just bad, and there's nothing else to it. Re-raising to 10 is worse than your original raise, and reraising again to 20 is EVEN worse than the UTG+1's raise. So far we have a bad opening bet, a bad raise, and a bad reraise.3) You're raise to 50 is pretty good, though I'd be tempted to just call and then check-raise the flop. 4) If you raised from 20 to 50, the next raise can't be to 75. It's not legal. It would have had to be at least 80.The rest of the hand is pretty standard - you got very unlucky. It happens. You just have to feel good knowing that you were a 2-1 advantage before the flop. Also, as tempting as it is to say,"I have aces, great," it's only a pair and has little room to grow. But this is just shit luck. Even though I don't think you played it very well, you probably wouldn't have gotten away from this beat.

[FOOSE1]

Thank you for your criticsm. I really appreciate it. Instead of telling me just how bad these two were for calling, you tell me how badly I played the hand. Thank you so much! I am not a professional player like yourself so I appreciate your input. With that said . . . Maybe it is different on the site you play on I don't know. But, I have been playing on this site for over 3 years on 1/2 NL and have hardly ever seen anyone raise more than 8 pre-flop and get a call which means that they would just pick up 1.50 for their pocket Aces. If you would have read my entire post you would realize that I said for this table $4 was a large raise. You see . . . I wanted callers to my $4 raise. I enjoy playing after the flop and would have been fine if these two had called the $4 raise with their crappy hands. If I had to lay down my Aces then I would have and wouldn't have been upset about it. But I am willing to take that chance to make more than the 1.50 for the blinds. What I am disgusted with is the re-raising by those two with junk and then their call of my all-in. This assumes that anyone with a brain would have realized what I had. So sincerely thank you for your input.It's funny how when somebody posts a hand all of a sudden everyone is a professional and starts disecting the play instead of . . . hey man that stinks . . . I can't believe they called with that crap . . . what were THEY thinking???

[texaswolf]

That's pretty horrible man. I feel for you. I don't even know how to explain the guy calling with 9 4. It's just an idiot getting lucky.

[Swift_Psycho]

FOOSE1 said:

Thank you for your criticsm. I really appreciate it. Instead of telling me just how bad these two were for calling, you tell me how badly I played the hand. Thank you so much! I am not a professional player like yourself so I appreciate your input. With that said . . . Maybe it is different on the site you play on I don't know. But, I have been playing on this site for over 3 years on 1/2 NL and have hardly ever seen anyone raise more than 8 pre-flop and get a call which means that they would just pick up 1.50 for their pocket Aces. If you would have read my entire post you would realize that I said for this table $4 was a large raise. You see . . . I wanted callers to my $4 raise. I enjoy playing after the flop and would have been fine if these two had called the $4 raise with their crappy hands. If I had to lay down my Aces then I would have and wouldn't have been upset about it. But I am willing to take that chance to make more than the 1.50 for the blinds. What I am disgusted with is the re-raising by those two with junk and then their call of my all-in. This assumes that anyone with a brain would have realized what I had. So sincerely thank you for your input.It's funny how when somebody posts a hand all of a sudden everyone is a professional and starts disecting the play instead of . . . hey man that stinks . . . I can't believe they called with that crap . . . what were THEY thinking???

Don't come to a poker forum if you don't want your play dissected. True bad beat stories are ones where you played the hand perfectly and still lost. There were things you could have done better. You seem just a little to sensitive to me. With that said, did you raise to $4 or raise $4 to $6? A minimum raise can hardly be considered a big raise, so I hope it was the latter. With two people raising like that, I think I would have made it about $70 after the one guy made it $20. You can get in big trouble making raises that small to $50 trying to get action. Anyway, yeah you got really unlucky. Good luck in the future.

[otnemem]

FOOSE1 said:

If you would have read my entire post you would realize that I said for this table $4 was a large raise.  You see . . . I wanted callers to my $4 raise.

When you say 1-2 NL, I assume you're talking about 1 and 2 dollar blinds... How can $4.00 be a large raise if it's the absolute minimum... If you play on poker room, then the 1-2 NL is really .50-1 NL, which you should call it. It makes it less confusing to EVERYONE else reading these boards. So if you were indeed playing what the rest of the world outside of Poker Room calls $.50-$1.00, then you're opening raise wasn't bad. If you read my f-ing post, you would have noticed that the ONLY thing I criticized about YOUR play was your opening raise. The rest was just two morons, one of which got lucky... And to think, you want to post a hand so you can be coddled and pampered because of the horrible beat... And I bet that's how you lost the rest of your money, too, right? Bad beats? Get over it...

[FOOSE1]

Actually, pokerroom does call it $1-$2 NL. But yes the blinds are .50/$1. Sorry for the confusion. So I guess my opening raise was only 4xbb not 6xbb. Look, I'm not wanting to be coddled. If you agree or disagree with my opening raise, re-raise or whatever really isn't the point. After the second re-raise I raised the pot all-in which was an additonal $100 for a total of $175. My point was that I had two morons call $175 worth of bets with 9 4 and Q 10 . I gut sucked out on by 9 4! That to me constitutes a bad beat. Frankly, if you don't agree with my play, I really don't care. There is no one way to play poker (just ask our host). Sorry if I offended you.

[Swift_Psycho]

FOOSE1 said:

Actually,  pokerroom does call it $1-$2 NL.  But yes the blinds are .50/$1.  Sorry for the confusion.  So I guess my opening raise was only 4xbb not 6xbb.  Look, I'm not wanting to be coddled.  If you agree or disagree with my opening raise, re-raise or whatever really isn't the point.  After the second re-raise I raised the pot all-in which was an additonal $100 for a total of $175.  My point was that I had two morons call $175 worth of bets with 9 4  and Q 10 .  I gut sucked out on by 9 4!  That to me constitutes a bad beat.  Frankly, if you don't agree with my play, I really don't care.  There is no one way to play poker (just ask our host).  Sorry if I offended you.

There may not be just one way to play poker, but in some scenarios there are better ways than others. Personally, as I've already posted, I felt that you're re-raise of the $20 bet was too small. Never post a hand without at least being somewhat open to criticism. Not even in the bad beat section. If there is a way we feel you could have played better, we will try to suggest it. We were just offering different ways to play the hand in order to avoid the bad beats. Even though their hands sucked, your raise to $50 was so small you were pricing a hand in to try and suck out. If someone just called the raise to $50 and hit a big flop, it is not that bad a beat anymore because you let them suck out with a small raise.

[otnemem]

Swift_Psycho said:

There may not be just one way to play poker, but in some scenarios there are better ways than others.  Personally, as I've already posted, I felt that you're re-raise of the $20 bet was too small.  Never post a hand without at least being somewhat open to criticism.  Not even in the bad beat section.  If there is a way we feel you could have played better, we will try to suggest it.  We were just offering different ways to play the hand in order to avoid the bad beats.  Even though their hands sucked, your raise to $50 was so small you were pricing a hand in to try and suck out.  If someone just called the raise to $50 and hit a big flop, it is not that bad a beat anymore because you let them suck out with a small raise.

You just brought a tear to my eye. Well put. Well put, indeed.FOOSE: I'm not offended, and the point isn't to make you feel bad about your play. Unfortunately, and I don't mean to be condescending because I'm sure you already know this, the key to getting better at poker is learning what's working and not working and changing it. In your case, the 4-9, which definitely shouldn't have been in or won that hand, sort of got priced in, in a sense. If you had made bigger raises at the right times, you probably wouldn't have seen him hang on like that.

[Swift_Psycho]

otnemem said:

Swift_Psycho said:

There may not be just one way to play poker, but in some scenarios there are better ways than others.  Personally, as I've already posted, I felt that you're re-raise of the $20 bet was too small.  Never post a hand without at least being somewhat open to criticism.  Not even in the bad beat section.  If there is a way we feel you could have played better, we will try to suggest it.  We were just offering different ways to play the hand in order to avoid the bad beats.  Even though their hands sucked, your raise to $50 was so small you were pricing a hand in to try and suck out.  If someone just called the raise to $50 and hit a big flop, it is not that bad a beat anymore because you let them suck out with a small raise.

You just brought a tear to my eye. Well put. Well put, indeed.FOOSE: I'm not offended, and the point isn't to make you feel bad about your play. Unfortunately, and I don't mean to be condescending because I'm sure you already know this, the key to getting better at poker is learning what's working and not working and changing it. In your case, the 4-9, which definitely shouldn't have been in or won that hand, sort of got priced in, in a sense. If you had made bigger raises at the right times, you probably wouldn't have seen him hang on like that.

Not really that big a deal, but I felt I should point something out before the original poster does. The statement that you made that I bolded is only partially correct. I have the sneaky suspicion that the player with 9-4 wasn't letting go of the hand regardless of the raises. However, raising larger than to $50 would have made it far more incorrect mathematically to call. Once he was priced in for the $50, it becomes more mathematically correct to then call the all-in. The more times you can make your opponent do something that is mathematically incorrect, you are making money and your opponent is losing money. So while I feel that this bad beat was inevitable because of the fact that the player wasn't letting go of the 9-4, the betting could have been improved so that the call was worse mathematically. Those difference in edges are what causes people to win in the long run.

[Swift_Psycho]

I have to go tell my wife that we can't pay our bills this month.I have to say one last thing. I really hope the above statement was just something thought or said in the heat of the moment, but was not actually a real problem. I cannot begin to explain how dumb it was to play at those limits if the above statement was serious.

[otnemem]

Swift_Psycho said:

otnemem said:

Swift_Psycho said:

There may not be just one way to play poker, but in some scenarios there are better ways than others.  Personally, as I've already posted, I felt that you're re-raise of the $20 bet was too small.  Never post a hand without at least being somewhat open to criticism.  Not even in the bad beat section.  If there is a way we feel you could have played better, we will try to suggest it.  We were just offering different ways to play the hand in order to avoid the bad beats.  Even though their hands sucked, your raise to $50 was so small you were pricing a hand in to try and suck out.  If someone just called the raise to $50 and hit a big flop, it is not that bad a beat anymore because you let them suck out with a small raise.

You just brought a tear to my eye. Well put. Well put, indeed.FOOSE: I'm not offended, and the point isn't to make you feel bad about your play. Unfortunately, and I don't mean to be condescending because I'm sure you already know this, the key to getting better at poker is learning what's working and not working and changing it. In your case, the 4-9, which definitely shouldn't have been in or won that hand, sort of got priced in, in a sense. If you had made bigger raises at the right times, you probably wouldn't have seen him hang on like that.

Not really that big a deal, but I felt I should point something out before the original poster does. The statement that you made that I bolded is only partially correct. I have the sneaky suspicion that the player with 9-4 wasn't letting go of the hand regardless of the raises. However, raising larger than to $50 would have made it far more incorrect mathematically to call. Once he was priced in for the $50, it becomes more mathematically correct to then call the all-in. The more times you can make your opponent do something that is mathematically incorrect, you are making money and your opponent is losing money. So while I feel that this bad beat was inevitable because of the fact that the player wasn't letting go of the 9-4, the betting could have been improved so that the call was worse mathematically. Those difference in edges are what causes people to win in the long run.

Yeah, I guess the fact that he reraised with the 9-4 probably says something...

[FOOSE1]

Swift_Psycho said:

I have to go tell my wife that we can't pay our bills this month.I have to say one last thing.  I really hope the above statement was just something thought or said in the heat of the moment, but was not actually a real problem.  I cannot begin to explain how dumb it was to play at those limits if the above statement was serious.

Yes that was a joke. The entire tone of the post (besides the bad beat part) was a joke. I would not play with my bill money or take my kids to the grocery store to get free samples.

[FOOSE1]

OK guys - thank you both for your input. I really DO appreciate your comments and suggestions. I don't have to agree with you 100%, but I do appreciate the input. The way I play is obviously different than the way you guys play and that is OK. I play to maximize each hand by adjusting to each table I play. I personally feel that I raised the appropriate amount to have atleast one of them stay in the hand. BUT . . . after both were calling I raised all-in for an additional $100 to both. At that point neither of them were pot committed compared to their stacks. Their odds for calling at that time were still not good enought to call with what they had . . . but they did . . . I lost . . . Bad Beat (in my eyes). Now I would like to offer you guys a bit of advice. No offense intended, but, please don't forget that I was the one sitting at this table. I had been playing the table for over half an hour. Every pot preceding this was very small. The largest opening bet I had seen was $4 to which everyone folded on four different occassions. That is why I made the $4 bet to begin with. From what I had seen so far, I felt that if anyone at this table called, then they actually had a good hand. As you both know, being a good player means that you adjust your game according to the table. If I had been playing at a looser, more aggressive table, I would have made much larger opening and subsequential raises. Please don't peg me on a style based on one hand that I posted on here. Besides that, I'm not a rookie. I have been playing for over 9 years. I have played 20-25 hours per week online for the last 3 years 4-tabling at these limits. My earnings last year from poker topped over $40,000. So as I once again thank you for your input, I believe that I am doing something right in the way I play. I do not say this to brag. I'm trying to show you that not everyone has to play every situation the same way. You can not take one hand that somebody posts and tell them what they did wrong because there is a lot more to take into account than anyone can give in a couple paragraphs. How many people were at this table, what were their stack sizes, how has each of them been betting, what is the table style - loose, passive, weak, strong, what was the average pot size. Here is an insight to how I really play. When I start a session I join one table. I watch this table for a minimum of five rounds before I join another table. I do this to take notes on every player that is sitting there at the time. Betting patterns, style, etc. I take note of the weak and strong players at the table. (Of course during the session a player or two will come and go, but you get the idea). Once I have the feel for this table down I join the next doing the same thing. I play solid poker and don't get too fancy. I wait on others to make mistakes. Like I said, I am not bragging at all. I am trying to let you know that I am not a beginner here. There are areas in my game where I try to improve daily. I am not perfect and do not claim to be. I have holes in my game just like everybody else, including you two. My point is that you two have collectively taken a post about two "not so good" players calling with crap and getting lucky into what has this gentleman done wrong. I did not give them a chance to "suck out" on me. THEY GOT LUCKY! I find it really hard to believe that you can tell me that because of the way I bet that they had no choice but to call me with a 9, 4 thinking that they had good odds to do so. THAT IS INSANE.So as I said before, thank you both for your input. This is not a flame thread and did not intend it to be. I was just trying to let you guys in on an amusing story about someone calling $175 with the 9 4 against my Aces and winning. THAT"S ALL!!!!

[Swift_Psycho]

FOOSE1 said:

OK guys - thank you both for your input. I really DO appreciate your comments and suggestions. I don't have to agree with you 100%, but I do appreciate the input. The way I play is obviously different than the way you guys play and that is OK. I play to maximize each hand by adjusting to each table I play. I personally feel that I raised the appropriate amount to have atleast one of them stay in the hand. BUT . . . after both were calling I raised all-in for an additional $100 to both. At that point neither of them were pot committed compared to their stacks. Their odds for calling at that time were still not good enought to call with what they had . . . but they did . . . I lost . . . Bad Beat (in my eyes). Now I would like to offer you guys a bit of advice. No offense intended, but, please don't forget that I was the one sitting at this table. I had been playing the table for over half an hour. Every pot preceding this was very small. The largest opening bet I had seen was $4 to which everyone folded on four different occassions. That is why I made the $4 bet to begin with. From what I had seen so far, I felt that if anyone at this table called, then they actually had a good hand. As you both know, being a good player means that you adjust your game according to the table. If I had been playing at a looser, more aggressive table, I would have made much larger opening and subsequential raises. Please don't peg me on a style based on one hand that I posted on here. Besides that, I'm not a rookie. I have been playing for over 9 years. I have played 20-25 hours per week online for the last 3 years 4-tabling at these limits. My earnings last year from poker topped over $40,000. So as I once again thank you for your input, I believe that I am doing something right in the way I play. I do not say this to brag. I'm trying to show you that not everyone has to play every situation the same way. You can not take one hand that somebody posts and tell them what they did wrong because there is a lot more to take into account than anyone can give in a couple paragraphs. How many people were at this table, what were their stack sizes, how has each of them been betting, what is the table style - loose, passive, weak, strong, what was the average pot size. Here is an insight to how I really play. When I start a session I join one table. I watch this table for a minimum of five rounds before I join another table. I do this to take notes on every player that is sitting there at the time. Betting patterns, style, etc. I take note of the weak and strong players at the table. (Of course during the session a player or two will come and go, but you get the idea). Once I have the feel for this table down I join the next doing the same thing. I play solid poker and don't get too fancy. I wait on others to make mistakes. Like I said, I am not bragging at all. I am trying to let you know that I am not a beginner here. There are areas in my game where I try to improve daily. I am not perfect and do not claim to be. I have holes in my game just like everybody else, including you two. My point is that you two have collectively taken a post about two "not so good" players calling with crap and getting lucky into what has this gentleman done wrong. I did not give them a chance to "suck out" on me. THEY GOT LUCKY! I find it really hard to believe that you can tell me that because of the way I bet that they had no choice but to call me with a 9, 4 thinking that they had good odds to do so. THAT IS INSANE.So as I said before, thank you both for your input. This is not a flame thread and did not intend it to be. I was just trying to let you guys in on an amusing story about someone calling $175 with the 9 4 against my Aces and winning. THAT"S ALL!!!!

You either heavily misread or misunderstood my responses, but I don't have the incentive to re-explain the things you misinterpreted from what I wrote anymore because if you didn't understand me before, you probably won't understand anything I say now. Good luck at the tables.

[oldpinkdog]

I sympathize with you Foose, and regardless of the way you played the hand, you got very unlucky. I have been on the losing side of these bad draw outs lately too, only I don't play NL online at those levels because there are too many fish out there. You can get on a bad streak like that and lose your whole bankroll by playing every hand perfectly, just because some players do not know when to fold. It is the same or worse in limit too, but you can limit your losses to these clowns easier. I just keep my NL play live, so I can actually look at the fish in the face, and make my decisions a little easier.