Lesson #1 On How To Be A Donkey

[crankin 0]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)CO ($24.65)Button ($25.10)SB ($25)BB ($24.37)UTG ($47.60)UTG+1 ($5.25)UTG+2 ($32.60)Hero ($34.41)MP2 ($22.39)MP3 ($35.47)Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5 , 7 . SB posts a blind of $0.10. UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.25, MP2 raises to $1, MP3 calls $1, 2 folds, SB (poster) calls $0.90, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.75, Hero calls $0.75.Flop: ($5.25) J , 2 , A (5 players)SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $2, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $2, SB folds, UTG calls $2.Turn: ($11.25) 8 (3 players)UTG checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets $5, UTG calls $5, Hero raises to $15, MP3 calls $10, UTG calls $10.River: ($56.25) 2 (3 players)UTG checks, Hero checks, MP3 calls $17.47 (All-In), UTG calls $17.47, Hero calls $16.41 (All-In).Final Pot: $107.60I was actually fairly ok with the hand until I got called by two players on the turn. At that point I knew there was no way I could be ahead in this hand. Yet, somehow one half of my brain said "you're getting 4.5 to 1 on your money, maybe you could win", while the other half said "you're a complete donkey, don't even think about putting the other half of your stack in that pot". As you can see, the donkey half one.No real need to comment about the river, but feel free to heckle. Comments on other streets are welcome as well.A scene from the next Donkey's Anonymous meetingrankinc: Hi, my name is rankinc, and I'm a donkeyDA group: Hi, rankincrankinc: I called off my stack with a baby flush after two other people flat-called my check-raiseDA group: <everyone looks at each other and nods>

[Lavitz 0]

It looks like MP3 has you beat but he could have two pair/set as well. River card is bad card but I make crying call anyways. This is Party Poker but I expect MP3 to have flush or boat in this situation.

[nomad_monad 0]

i'm not sure i understand the purpose of the turn c/r.are you raising here to see if your flush is good, or are you raising here for value but not so much you drive people out of the hand? there might be some uncertainty here, but you're not deep enough to make an attempt at hand definition. i think if you have to decide right there if you're good or not.if you think your flush is good then i think you should really be looking to push when it comes back to you. the 15 raise makes the pot 36 and either player is offered nearly 4-1 to call if they are on a club redraw or drawing to a boat. as it is what happened here was that you gave them proper odds to draw out on you while also kind of committing yourself to the hand.if you're worried about your flush being good, then i would just call instead of c/ring and try to see a cheap showdown.

[crankin 0]

i'm not sure i understand the purpose of the turn c/r.are you raising here to see if your flush is good, or are you raising here for value but not so much you drive people out of the hand? if you think your flush is good then i think you should really be looking to push when it comes back to you. the 15 raise makes the pot 36 and either player is offered nearly 4-1 to call if they are on a club redraw or drawing to a boat. as it is what happened here was that you gave them proper odds to draw out on you while also kind of committing yourself to the hand.if you're worried about your flush being good, then i would just call instead of c/ring and try to see a cheap showdown.

At the time, I was on the fence as to whether my flush was good. I suspected it might be, and figured a check-raise would give me that information. I can'really raise any more without completely pot-sticking myself. I figured a check-raise drives out top pair kinds of hands and most two pair. Most sets are likely to stay, as are (obviously) made flushes. As for giving them proper odds on a draw, that's true, but I don't believe most players at these limits think in those terms. They see more absolute dollar values.In any event, I agree that I should have simply called and see what the river action was. My guess is MP3 puts in a good size bet, but doesn't push. Then, I can see what UTG does as well.

[coremiller 0]

PREFLOPwhy are you limping from MP1 with this hand? it's not really horrible, but i don't like playing these kinds of hands OOP without being the aggressor. if the pot gets raised behind you you're playing a relatively weak hand out of position in a potentially big pot. that's usually a recipe for disaster. that said, it's not so bad if the table is passive pre-flop, plus you have some implied odds, and you have good position relative to the raiser. still, i prefer raising pre-flop (for deception/controlling the betting) or folding to just limping. paul phillips has a motto on his blog: "loose limps sink chips." there's often a lot of truth to that.FLOPwhy bet into the raiser here, especially when the ace hit and he, or someone else, probably hit their hand? you really don't want to get reraised in this spot, as that would bloat the pot and knock all the other players who might overcall out, yet that's a real possibiltiy if someone has AK, AJ, or a set. what exactly is this bet here meant to accomplish? semibluffs derive their value from the combination of pot equity + fold equity, but you have zero fold equity here. no ace is folding for a bet of less than half the pot. i would advise waiting until you have position to semibluff. but if you are going to semibluff, you need to bet more. or you could check-raise. but this bet doesn't knock anyone out who has a better hand, doesn't define anyone else's hand so you can get a read (some players might even peel with a jack or KQ here, or someone could be slowplaying a big hand ... you have no idea), doesnt clean up outs (by knocking out other club draws), doesn't win you position for the rest of the hand, and will get reraised a decent percentage of the time. that's all bad.TURNas played so far, the turn has to be c/r all-in. you made your hand but there are probably redraws against you, so you need to get value now before the river comes and either puts you behind or kills your action. if someone has a higher flush, you'll have to live with it. plus, any raise you make leaves you pot-committed, so you might as well get it all in the middle now while your hand is probably good.RIVERyou're probably beat, but getting about 6.5:1 you have to call.

[iggymcfly 0]

I hate the turn. A check/raise just gets more money in when you're beat, and knocks players out of the hand when you're behind. At this level, I'd say just leading it is probably the best play with a c/c being a close second.Oh yeah, the flop bet sucks too. You're really telegraphing your hand by betting less than half the pot. If you want to try to take the pot down, make a real bet, and if you want to get a cheap turn, then just check.

[crankin 0]

PREFLOPwhy are you limping from MP1 with this hand? it's not really horrible, but i don't like playing these kinds of hands OOP without being the aggressor. if the pot gets raised behind you you're playing a relatively weak hand out of position in a potentially big pot. that's usually a recipe for disaster. that said, it's not so bad if the table is passive pre-flop, plus you have some implied odds, and you have good position relative to the raiser. still, i prefer raising pre-flop (for deception/controlling the betting) or folding to just limping. paul phillips has a motto on his blog: "loose limps sink chips." there's often a lot of truth to that.

I'll normally limp with this type of hand with 2 other limpers. In this case I was feeling a little frisky (so limped with only one other limper). Once everybody else called the raise, I was getting good odds so I called the raise. Had nobody else (or only 1 other person) called the raise, I'd have folded preflop.

FLOPwhy bet into the raiser here, especially when the ace hit and he, or someone else, probably hit their hand? you really don't want to get reraised in this spot, as that would bloat the pot and knock all the other players who might overcall out, yet that's a real possibiltiy if someone has AK, AJ, or a set. what exactly is this bet here meant to accomplish? semibluffs derive their value from the combination of pot equity + fold equity, but you have zero fold equity here. no ace is folding for a bet of less than half the pot. i would advise waiting until you have position to semibluff. but if you are going to semibluff, you need to bet more. or you could check-raise. but this bet doesn't knock anyone out who has a better hand, doesn't define anyone else's hand so you can get a read (some players might even peel with a jack or KQ here, or someone could be slowplaying a big hand ... you have no idea), doesnt clean up outs (by knocking out other club draws), doesn't win you position for the rest of the hand, and will get reraised a decent percentage of the time. that's all bad.

Seems the flop bet is unpopular. I was attempting to do two things at once. First was a bit of a blocking bet -- I wanted to name my price for the draw. Two, I actually wanted to get some money in the pot in case I hit the flush. I figure most hands that raise here won't be able to beat my flush. So, depending on the size of the raise, I can choose to either fold or call and hope to catch. I figure any other flush draws are happy to get the cheap price to call. The fact that I didn't get raised here indicates there are other flush draws out there (given the board, I doubt there are any straight draws), which is why I think my river (and probably turn) plays are bad.

TURNas played so far, the turn has to be c/r all-in. you made your hand but there are probably redraws against you, so you need to get value now before the river comes and either puts you behind or kills your action. if someone has a higher flush, you'll have to live with it. plus, any raise you make leaves you pot-committed, so you might as well get it all in the middle now while your hand is probably good.

At these levels I really think the size of raise I put in pushes out anything other than a made flush and a set. Given that there were no raises on the flop, I think there is a decent chance others were on the flush draw, and given how low my flush is, a c/r all-in just puts all my money in with the worst of it. I'd rather get re-raised and have to make the decision. Other small flushes will probably only call my raise instead of re-raising (for fear of the bigger flush). I'd generally expect the nut flush to re-raise here.

RIVERyou're probably beat, but getting about 6.5:1 you have to call.

I think I'm only getting 4.5:1. In any case, I was absolutely certain I was beat at this point based on the play on previous streets (not to mention the board paired just in case the set called the check/raise). I'm willing to concede the other streets could have been played smarter, but I still think the river call (given the way the hand played out) is the worst mistake here.

I hate the turn. A check/raise just gets more money in when you're beat, and knocks players out of the hand when you're behind. At this level, I'd say just leading it is probably the best play with a c/c being a close second.

The check/raise seemed like a good idea at the time. However, in hindsight, I think I like the check/call line better, particularly since I'll be last to act after the pre-flop raiser.

Oh yeah, the flop bet sucks too. You're really telegraphing your hand by betting less than half the pot. If you want to try to take the pot down, make a real bet, and if you want to get a cheap turn, then just check.

Addressed this part in a response to coremiller. Short version -- I was trying to make a blocking bot while also getting a little extra money in the pot if the flush came in.Do you dislike leading at your draws in all circumstances, or do you just like the fact that the bet is so weak?

[nomad_monad 0]

one bit of slight disagreement here with coremiller - to us that bet really telegraphs that you're trying to buy a cheap draw. but at 25NL, a lot of people aren't really going to notice. i do agree though that if we're going to try and bet our draw, we need to bet more than $2 here. you don't get any fold equity and you're really not blocking anything if the preflop raiser has hit this flop (unless he's really passive).i think one factor in deciding whether or not to bet our draw is a read on how aggressively the preflop raiser protects his hand. if he's inclined to raise here for hand definition/protection, one thing that leading here would do is get him to raise and therefore knock out any competing flush draws which would be getting bad prices. one caveat to this is that you'd need to be fairly sure he'd still payoff if your draw hits because you will be paying much more for it on the flop.EDIT - this is just in theory - i just looked at stacks again and here neither you nor villain are deep enough to make the above strategy profitable.if he's more passive, leading could be very bad because he might just flat call and therefore invite along competing flush draws (which are probably better ones) who get very good prices.if we had a higher flush draw, i think it's actually better here in either circumstance to check and hope other flush draws come along.

[Scott3705 0]

I honestly don't see much wrong w/ calling off after the C/R. It's really not bad at all.I'd usually lead that turn and would like to C/R it against aggressiv eplayers that will stab at it a good majority of the time. This hand isn't bad. It would be totally different if you were calling a reraise at any point in this hand, but you're not.

[subsin 0]

you're going for your flush, u hit it on the turn, if you're gona c/r, c/r all in, and if you are gona go all in, ur thinking no one else has a flush, unfortunaley the board pairs and ur pretty much dead