8 replies to this topic

[coremiller]

This is like my 10th hand at this table, so no real reads except that Villian #2 is super-loose. I hate how passive I am here, but I really didn't know where I was at any point, and I hate being OOP, but I didn't see how I could fold.

Bet the flop? Bet the turn? Bet the river? Check-raise somewhere? I'm check-calling the river, btw.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FCP)

saw flop|saw showdown

Villian #1 ($106.80)
Hero ($99.30)
BB ($19.78)
UTG ($109.70)
Villian #2 ($70.61)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A , J . Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, Villian #2 calls $1, Villian #1 raises to $2, Hero (poster) calls $1.50, BB calls $1, UTG calls $1, Villian #2 calls $1.

Flop: ($10) Q , A , K (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Villian #2 bets $3, Villian #1 raises to $6, Hero calls $6, BB folds, UTG folds, Villian #2 calls $3.

Turn: ($28) 7 (3 players)
Hero checks, Villian #2 checks, Villian #1 bets $10, Hero calls $10, Villian #2 folds.

River: ($48) T (2 players)
Hero checks ...

[nomad_monad]

i think this is a raise or a fold on the flop. that flop hits hard for a wide range of hands villain#2 could have raised with preflop even if he is loose. i don't think calling is good here because

1) you're not closing the action. villain #1 could still potentially come over the top.
2) you're going to be OOP, in the dark about your hand, and there are very few turn cards that are going to make you feel better. i'd say a non-spade T and that's it. a J could potentially be quite disastrous.

i think you want to either get out now or make an attempt to end the hand right there. normally in this situation, following a bet and a raise, i'm outta there, but both the bet and the raise seem kind of weak, plus you did say villain#2 was pretty loose, so i might c/r here and dump the hand if i get called. a c/r won't be that transparent and either of the villains will have to have a pretty good hand to call you here.

[coremiller]

i think this is a raise or a fold on the flop. that flop hits hard for a wide range of hands villain#2 could have raised with preflop even if he is loose. i don't think calling is good here because

1) you're not closing the action. villain #1 could still potentially come over the top.
2) you're going to be OOP, in the dark about your hand, and there are very few turn cards that are going to make you feel better. i'd say a non-spade T and that's it. a J could potentially be quite disastrous.

i think you want to either get out now or make an attempt to end the hand right there. normally in this situation, following a bet and a raise, i'm outta there, but both the bet and the raise seem kind of weak, plus you did say villain#2 was pretty loose, so i might c/r here and dump the hand if i get called. a c/r won't be that transparent and either of the villains will have to have a pretty good hand to call you here.

normally i would fold to a bet and a raise here. the thing is, the bets were so small. even after the second raise, it hasn't gotten to the size of the pot yet. this told me that these two players were major donks (as if the pre-flop minraise with two limpers already in the pot hadnt told me that already) and would probably let me stick around to showdown relatively cheaply.

the problem with check-raising is potsize. i want to keep this pot as small as possible, and check-raising bloats it, plus knocks out all of the hands I have beat. i'm only getting called if i'm crushed. i was thinking, if i just call, the guy might continue to small-bet his Ax or draw or whatever and I can squeeze some value out of it without too much risk. if villian #1 reraises the flop again, i'm outta there.

this is all predicated on him continuing to bet small. i'm in real trouble with my line if Villian bets more on the turn, say $20-25 instead of $10. then i run the real risk of folding the best hand, calling with no idea where I am, or check-raising and playing a huge pot OOP with no read when I could be crushed. those are all bad.

so what's the lesser of two evils here?

[nomad_monad]

so what's the lesser of two evils here?

heads up i think the passive line makes more sense.
multiway there's a much better chance here that you get outdrawn or suckered in further on the turn with action that goes something like:

check, villain#2 checks, villain #1 bets, hero calls, villain#2 raises

true, c/r makes the pot bigger OOP, but you really aren't playing past the turn if you get called - you can't be ahead of much so losing the possibility of a cheap showdown (which is no guarantee, btw) shouldn't bother you much because at that point your hand likely doesn't have much showdown value anyways. if you play this passively, true, you keep a worse Ax or JJ or whatever in the hand, but you also let another opponent with potentially two spades stick around for cheap as well.

[fckthis]

I donk bet river, but other than that Im cool. If it was raised more preflop, I think its a fold.

[crankin]

I don't like the flop call for two reasons.

1) Villain #2 is still to act. You said he was loose, but I don't know if that is loose aggressive or loose passive. If it's the former, then I'm concerned about him coming back over the top.

2) Over the last month or so, I've noticed that the donk min-raise, much more often than not, means they have a great hand already (YMMV). It would not surprise me at all to see AK, AQ, AA, KK, or QQ here.

So, overall, I'm with nomad here. I'd either fold or raise (to around $20), leaning more towards a fold (as weak as that seems).

As played, I really don't think you have to be concerned about the flush. I'd put a pot sized bet in on the river and call a push.

[Scott3705]

fold flop. end hand.

[coremiller]

I don't like the flop call for two reasons.

1) Villain #2 is still to act. You said he was loose, but I don't know if that is loose aggressive or loose passive. If it's the former, then I'm concerned about him coming back over the top.

2) Over the last month or so, I've noticed that the donk min-raise, much more often than not, means they have a great hand already (YMMV). It would not surprise me at all to see AK, AQ, AA, KK, or QQ here.

So, overall, I'm with nomad here. I'd either fold or raise (to around $20), leaning more towards a fold (as weak as that seems).

As played, I really don't think you have to be concerned about the flush. I'd put a pot sized bet in on the river and call a push.

1) I should have been more clear on this - #2 was loose-passive over this small sample. He'd limped in like 7 of the first 10 hands I'd been at the table. Hadn't seen much post-flop from him yet, but usually (not always) passive pre-flop and passive post-flop go together.

2) I generally think this is right when the raise comes from EP or it's opening the pot. In those cases donks are concerned that no one will call their monster hand and they'll get no value. But with two limpers in front, I didn't think that was the case here. I've seen this play made on the button before (not yet by this player, though) with all kinds of holdings.

I thought hard about folding, but it just seemed so weak that I couldnt bring myself to do it here. Probably a mistake. After his turn bet I felt more comfortable that I was in a good spot. I think you're right that I should bet the river.


btw, what does YMMV mean?

[crankin]

1) I should have been more clear on this - #2 was loose-passive over this small sample. He'd limped in like 7 of the first 10 hands I'd been at the table. Hadn't seen much post-flop from him yet, but usually (not always) passive pre-flop and passive post-flop go together.

Ok. In that case, you obviously aren't too worried about him re-raising. His bet was probably the donk "let me see if I can take the pot with a really small bet" move.

2) I generally think this is right when the raise comes from EP or it's opening the pot. In those cases donks are concerned that no one will call their monster hand and they'll get no value. But with two limpers in front, I didn't think that was the case here. I've seen this play made on the button before (not yet by this player, though) with all kinds of holdings.

I've seen this play in a wide variety of situations. The most popular being the check/min-raise. Fortunately, if you call them, a lot of the time they are dumb enough to check to you again thinking you'll bet again. So, at least you get a chance to catch up.

I thought hard about folding, but it just seemed so weak that I couldnt bring myself to do it here. Probably a mistake. After his turn bet I felt more comfortable that I was in a good spot. I think you're right that I should bet the river.
btw, what does YMMV mean?

YMMV == Your Mileage May Vary