22 replies to this topic

[digitalmonkey]

Tell me what you think of this hand and how I played it. I removed my hole cards for full effect.Hand #4902051-5 at Mon1020pmA-031 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)Powered by UltimateBetStarted at 14/Mar/05 22:25:57ms312997 is at seat 0 with 1500.lhofmann is at seat 1 with 2035.Bowhunter33 is at seat 2 with 1465.CvilleHoldem is at seat 3 with 1465.monkeyman1968 is at seat 4 with 1375.cubs2004 is at seat 5 with 1505.buckeyejoe is at seat 6 with 1280.SULLYS IRISH is at seat 7 with 1570.druss6676 is at seat 8 with 1740.no1patsfan711 is at seat 9 with 1065.The button is moved to seat 7.The button is at seat 7.druss6676 posts the small blind of 5.no1patsfan711 posts the big blind of 10.ms312997, at seat 0, is in this hand.lhofmann, at seat 1, is in this hand.Bowhunter33, at seat 2, is in this hand.CvilleHoldem, at seat 3, is in this hand.monkeyman1968, at seat 4, is in this hand.cubs2004, at seat 5, is in this hand.buckeyejoe, at seat 6, is in this hand.SULLYS IRISH, at seat 7, is in this hand.druss6676, at seat 8, is in this hand.no1patsfan711, at seat 9, is in this hand.druss6676 is dealt:no1patsfan711 is dealt:ms312997 is dealt:lhofmann is dealt:Bowhunter33 is dealt:CvilleHoldem is dealt:monkeyman1968 is dealt: ? ?cubs2004 is dealt:buckeyejoe is dealt:SULLYS IRISH is dealt:Pre-flop:ms312997 folds.lhofmann folds.Bowhunter33 folds.CvilleHoldem folds.monkeyman1968 calls.cubs2004 folds.buckeyejoe calls.SULLYS IRISH calls.druss6676 calls.no1patsfan711 checks.flop card: Ksflop card: Asflop card: 3cFlop (board: Ks As 3c):druss6676 checks.no1patsfan711 checks.monkeyman1968 checks.buckeyejoe checks.SULLYS IRISH bets 50.druss6676 folds.no1patsfan711 calls.monkeyman1968 calls.buckeyejoe folds.turn card: 6dTurn (board: Ks As 3c 6d):no1patsfan711 checks.monkeyman1968 checks.SULLYS IRISH bets 300.no1patsfan711 folds.monkeyman1968 calls.river card: 4cRiver (board: Ks As 3c 6d 4c):monkeyman1968 checks.SULLYS IRISH goes all-in for 1210.monkeyman1968 goes all-in for 1015.SULLYS IRISH is returned 195 (uncalled).Tournament all-in showdown -- players show:monkeyman1968 shows Ac Ah.SULLYS IRISH shows Ad Kh.Showdown:monkeyman1968 has Ac Ah Ks As 6d: three aces.SULLYS IRISH has Ad Kh Ks As 6d: two pair, aces and kings.Hand #4902051-5 Summary:No rake is taken for this hand.monkeyman1968 wins 2830 with three aces.Hand 4902051-5 ends.

[jayistheman]

wow....two dirty limpers in the same handthe check on the river was almost equally as ballsyi never ever limp because you arent safe unless you flop a set.but it worked... nh

[digitalmonkey]

jayistheman said:

wow....two dirty limpers in the same handthe check on the river was almost equally as ballsyi never ever limp because you arent safe unless you flop a set.but it worked... nh

I knew he had an ace and I was fairly certain he would bet on the river. Luckily (for me) he also had a K and pushed all in. Happy St. Patrick's Day to him...wherever he may be.

[Emptyeye]

You do realize that a third spade falling potentially ruins your day, right? Or more to your analogy, the "fly" potentially gets a nice dose a radiation and becomes Superfly, and utterly wrecks the spider (you).Anyway, nice play, although risky. Just curious, you were sure he was a reasonable player and wouldn't play, say, 52o?

[Awful]

I've got to disagree with the assessment that this was a skillful trap. It was a trap whose execution was guaranteed by the deck. The only way you don't win all his chips is to push preflop and some will call even there with big slick.Fun circumstances, but you can take pretty much any line not involving folding and win all that guys chips.He has slick and flops (obviously top) 2 pair. You could say in chat "I'm holding AA, don't call my all-in" and push on the flop and he would call.Also, as someone had said, another spade could be unpleasant, too.So: Ballsy, ultimately unneccesary, increased risk, nothing special or manipulative considering the circumstances.Sorry, hadn't been enough of an ass on the forums yet today

[digitalmonkey]

Awful said:

I've got to disagree with the assessment that this was a skillful trap. It was a trap whose execution was guaranteed by the deck. The only way you don't win all his chips is to push preflop and some will call even there with big slick.Fun circumstances, but you can take pretty much any line not involving folding and win all that guys chips.He has slick and flops (obviously top) 2 pair. You could say in chat "I'm holding AA, don't call my all-in" and push on the flop and he would call.Also, as someone had said, another spade could be unpleasant, too.So: Ballsy, ultimately unneccesary, increased risk, nothing special or manipulative considering the circumstances.Sorry, hadn't been enough of an ass on the forums yet today

Hindsight is 70/30...or something like that. I was almost certain that this guy was holding an ace, but if he has a crappy kicker, he may fold to any large bet I make. We only know this wouldn't have been the case after the fact. The spades didn't worry me too much, cause like I said, I was certain he had an ace and the ace of spades was on the board...so I guess I was fairly certain he had the ace of diamonds. A fourth spade would have been a powerful laxative however.

[digitalmonkey]

Just noticed your sig Awful...try www.playminnesotapoker.com

[Smasharoo]

You both played it like shit.Fortunately for you, no matter how either of you played it the result would have been the same.This is a much better post if he has 57o.

[digitalmonkey]

Smasharoo said:

You both played it like censored.

I disagree...I let him bet into me with a weaker hand and very little chance of improving.

Smasharoo said:

Fortunately for you, no matter how either of you played it the result would have been the same.

In hindsight, this is probably correct.

Smasharoo said:

This is a much better post if he has 57o.

or if SULLYS IRISH also plays on PokerStars as theCandle

[Smasharoo]

I disagree...I let him bet into me with a weaker hand and very little chance of improving. You could see his cards?Cool. Must be a pretty easy game that way.

[princeof56k]

While you did beat the guy who had AK, the real problem I have with this hand is that you seemed to ignore the guy in the big blind. When the guy who had AK on the flop bet about the size of the pot, I can see how you would put him on a Ace. But the big blind saw it fit to call that bet. There's no telling what he had since he was in the big blind, but it was probably some kind of draw. He could have all kinds of crap. He ended up folding on the turn so he probably wasnt on a spade draw. But in my opinion this was the guy to fear since he was probably the one on draw big enough draw to crack your set.

[digitalmonkey]

Smasharoo said:

I disagree...I let him bet into me with a weaker hand and very little chance of improving. You could see his cards?

Ya know, sometimes it's like I can....I guess I may have a knack for this No Limit Hold 'Em thing. :-)

[Smasharoo]

.I guess I may have a knack for this No Limit Hold 'Em thing.No, no you don't.Trust me.You're just playing in games where the other poeple are playing even worse than you are.

[digitalmonkey]

Smasharoo said:

.I guess I may have a knack for this No Limit Hold 'Em thing.No, no you don't.Trust me.You're just playing in games where the other poeple are playing even worse than you are.

Wow, an evaluation of my game based on one hand where I slowplayed Aces and won a huge pot. Are you the poker guru?

[Wily]

Smasharoo said:

.I guess I may have a knack for this No Limit Hold 'Em thing.No, no you don't.Trust me.You're just playing in games where the other poeple are playing even worse than you are.

Have to agree with Smasharoo here. This hand wouldve been all the more instructive for you if the turn had been a jack, and BB won with Q 10. Or if he won with 4 7 spades. It's difficult to imagine why you didn't raise on the flop to isolate the aggressor and try to throw off a gutshot straight draw or possibly a flush draw with a large enough bet, but what is really unfathomable is why you didn't raise preflop. Trust me, as someone who really likes sitngos' and multitable tournaments, you don't slow play AA preflop! I've seen myself and many, many others lose their entire stack and tournament life slowplaying aces into some random suited hand or gapped connector that hits perfectly. I believe that, psychologically, it is virtually impossible to fold AA even to an all-in bet in a NL tournament. Therefore, raise to isolate players so that you can limit what range of cards he plays, and then push in when you are certain you have a better hand. In this hand, you shouldve raised preflop (both of you should've), and your ooponent certainly would've called and gone all in on the flop. Same result, lowered chance of being drawn out. The way you played it, you were the fly trapping yourself on the web .. you were just lucky that there was no spider in this case to devour you.

[digitalmonkey]

Wily said:

Have to agree with Smasharoo here. This hand wouldve been all the more instructive for you if the turn had been a jack, and BB won with Q 10. Or if he won with 4 7 spades. It's difficult to imagine why you didn't raise on the flop to isolate the aggressor and try to throw off a gutshot straight draw or possibly a flush draw with a large enough bet, but what is really unfathomable is why you didn't raise preflop. Trust me, as someone who really likes sitngos' and multitable tournaments, you don't slow play AA preflop! I've seen myself and many, many others lose their entire stack and tournament life slowplaying aces into some random suited hand or gapped connector that hits perfectly. I believe that, psychologically, it is virtually impossible to fold AA even to an all-in bet in a NL tournament. Therefore, raise to isolate players so that you can limit what range of cards he plays, and then push in when you are certain you have a better hand. In this hand, you shouldve raised preflop (both of you should've), and your ooponent certainly would've called and gone all in on the flop. Same result, lowered chance of being drawn out. The way you played it, you were the fly trapping yourself on the web .. you were just lucky that there was no spider in this case to devour you.

A more thorough and constructive analysis than Smash's usual drop 'n' plop method, but I still hear a lot of "what if this" and "what if that's". Well what if SULLYS IRISH had 22 and the flop came A 2 2....I'll admit that slowplaying aces is risky and I have been burned before, but when it works, it usually works very well as was the case here. I have bet with pocket aces so many times (and I'm not talking blatant overbets) and had it folded back to me only to pick up the blinds that I'm willing to take this risk when the blinds are small. I have no problem folding AA or a set of them when I am fairly certain I am beaten.Thanks for the posts. Yeah, even you Smash. :wink:

[Smasharoo]

but when it works, it usually works very well as was the case here.No, when it works you ussually would have won the same amount with much les risk not slowplaying, as was the case here.

[Awful]

digitalmonkey said:

A more thorough and constructive analysis than Smash's usual drop 'n' plop method, but I still hear a lot of "what if this" and "what if that's".  Well what if SULLYS IRISH had 22 and the flop came A 2 2....I'll admit that slowplaying aces is risky and I have been burned before, but when it works, it usually works very well as was the case here.  I have bet with pocket aces so many times (and I'm not talking blatant overbets) and had it folded back to me only to pick up the blinds that I'm willing to take this risk when the blinds are small.  I have no problem folding AA or a set of them when I am fairly certain I am beaten.Thanks for the posts.  Yeah, even you Smash. :wink:

The problem isn't that slowplaying pocket aces doesn't work well. This is where you're missing most of the posts and missing the point. Slowplaying aces will work fine, because playing them fast works equally well when facing big hands. The question isn't "did it work", the question is "did it work far better than not slowplaying"?The PROBLEM is that the slowplay must work infinitely better than playing fast. Remember the phrase "don't get broke in an unraised pot"? You have no reads and higher standards for large postlfop wagering due to your limp with A's. You can't feel good moving in on the flop without a set because of the BB and the garbage you kept in. You're making AA into 22. Can you win a big pot? Yes. But you'll also lose your share of big pots, you'll still win tiny pots when you have an overpair (where AA could win a big pot vs. a raise-calling hand) usually, at best a medium pot. FOR THE RISK added, slowplaying AA preflop is not incrementally better than making a good standard raise to justify that. The limp-reraise is different; you're still getting it in preflop and restricting the hands of opponents and so on. Not intending to get your money in with AA preflop is foolish.Slowplaying aces introduces risk and offers implied odds that demand that it is SIGNIFICANTLY better than playing them like the best hand but still just 1 pair and protecting them. The "what if's" are the inherent difficulty in laying down aces when someone will give action with a junky hand that managed to outflop or otherwise outdraw you. An overpair isn't an automatic all-in hand on the turn anymore if stacks are deep and the pot was unraised.AA is in the unique position that its best matchups are with the best non-paired hands, and that it's as good vs. KK as vs. 22. By raising, you'll play not just a bigger pot but play it with a big edge. If you take the blinds, shit happens; you got unlucky. Remember that that is a far more profitable form of unlucky than losing your stack when 5-7 hits 2 pair.

[Wily]

Awful said:

digitalmonkey said:

A more thorough and constructive analysis than Smash's usual drop 'n' plop method, but I still hear a lot of "what if this" and "what if that's".  Well what if SULLYS IRISH had 22 and the flop came A 2 2....I'll admit that slowplaying aces is risky and I have been burned before, but when it works, it usually works very well as was the case here.  I have bet with pocket aces so many times (and I'm not talking blatant overbets) and had it folded back to me only to pick up the blinds that I'm willing to take this risk when the blinds are small.  I have no problem folding AA or a set of them when I am fairly certain I am beaten.Thanks for the posts.  Yeah, even you Smash. :wink:

The problem isn't that slowplaying pocket aces doesn't work well. This is where you're missing most of the posts and missing the point. Slowplaying aces will work fine, because playing them fast works equally well when facing big hands. The question isn't "did it work", the question is "did it work far better than not slowplaying"?The PROBLEM is that the slowplay must work infinitely better than playing fast. Remember the phrase "don't get broke in an unraised pot"? You have no reads and higher standards for large postlfop wagering due to your limp with A's. You can't feel good moving in on the flop without a set because of the BB and the garbage you kept in. You're making AA into 22. Can you win a big pot? Yes. But you'll also lose your share of big pots, you'll still win tiny pots when you have an overpair (where AA could win a big pot vs. a raise-calling hand) usually, at best a medium pot. FOR THE RISK added, slowplaying AA preflop is not incrementally better than making a good standard raise to justify that. The limp-reraise is different; you're still getting it in preflop and restricting the hands of opponents and so on. Not intending to get your money in with AA preflop is foolish.Slowplaying aces introduces risk and offers implied odds that demand that it is SIGNIFICANTLY better than playing them like the best hand but still just 1 pair and protecting them. The "what if's" are the inherent difficulty in laying down aces when someone will give action with a junky hand that managed to outflop or otherwise outdraw you. An overpair isn't an automatic all-in hand on the turn anymore if stacks are deep and the pot was unraised.AA is in the unique position that its best matchups are with the best non-paired hands, and that it's as good vs. KK as vs. 22. By raising, you'll play not just a bigger pot but play it with a big edge. If you take the blinds, censored happens; you got unlucky. Remember that that is a far more profitable form of unlucky than losing your stack when 5-7 hits 2 pair.

Well said - this was my point about how bad your limping in preflop was. There is a certain amount of game theory involved in a preflop raise - it places limits to a certain set of hands that you can be faced against, and in actuality they will most likely be limited to two court cards and pocket pairs. Pocket pairs will only have a 1/5 chance of hitting, and if they do, then c'est la vie. As for the court cards (Jack to Ace), you only have to worry about them in general if two or more Broadway cards show up, and you still have outs even if they've hit something better than you. However, if you limp you allow the possible set of cards to be much wider, including the completely random BB hand. This could involve strange gapped hands like 2-4 or 3-6 that would put you in serious trouble if an ace and some low cards show up. You have a much more camouflaged set of opponents, and since it's a tournament and you have limited time/resources, you're probably going to call an all in NO MATTER what happens on the flop. You may deny this right now, but I can say that it is much tougher than you think when you have that Ace Ace in your virtual hand, and limited chips left in the tournament. Therefore, you have to raise preflop to limit your opponents' hands, to make them more pot-committed and likely to call an all-in bet (which is your desired outcome), and to put proper aggression. Besides, if you have been stealing blinds and playing aggressively all along, most of you will not figure you for AA if you do put in a standard raise. This is true because, just like you, most players in tournaments LOVE to limp with KK or AA, and try to trap .. and then get trapped when the flop comes down 5 6 8 and I have the 7 9

[UglyJimStudly]

digitalmonkey said:

Tell me what you think of this hand and how I played it.

I think your actions - if simply calling every bet can be called an "action" - made very little difference as to the eventual outcome. If you're looking for an evaluation of your playing skill, you might be better off examining hand histories where your play is in some way different from that of a monkey trained to hit the call button every time.