22 replies to this topic

[offsuitbluff]

ok i was recently ina big tourney were I went out in 6th with KK let me sit itup.its pretty simple everone folds to me in the small blind I raise, the bb reraises and I go all in.we were both the chip leaders at that point. the bb shows AK and and an ace comes on the flop. then someon says they folded a king and i'm drawing dead.would anyone here just call the reraise and check the flop for an ACE?I figured I had the best hand and if I was gonna get the most possible action for it I should go all in. I question this we were both chip leaders but If my hand had held up I would have had about 2/3 the chips with five players left.

[jayistheman]

no... he could easily have a low pocket pair and hit a cheap set.move in every time. if you get outdrawn, you get outdrawn. he has 3 outs to an A... its like worrying about folding when someone moves all in on a gutshot straight draw.

[justblaze]

offsuitbluff said:

ok i was recently ina big tourney were I went out in 6th with KK let me sit itup.its pretty simple everone folds to me in the small blind I raise, the bb reraises and I go all in.we were both the chip leaders at that point. the bb shows AK and and an ace comes on the flop. then someon says they folded a king and i'm drawing dead.would anyone here just call the reraise and check the flop for an ACE?I figured I had the best hand and if I was gonna get the most possible action for it I should go all in. I question this we were both chip leaders but If my hand had held up I would have had about 2/3 the chips with five players left.

well, to get the exact tournament equity id need chipcounts, payout structure, starting players, time till next blind increase, blind levels and next blind level, but with the information above i say push. I did the exact same thing in the final three of a HUGE MTT and lost to AQ, but id do it every time. if i win, im guaranteed first with 80% of the chips in play. and hes got 3 outs to beat me. good bet.

[rollito]

I have tried that idea before and do it sometimes, more with queens when i feel im in a coin flip.......i would have called that raise and seen if a A hit the flop, and if it didnt then id push the rest of my chips in......it works because you don't give you opponent all 5 cards to hit their a.....instead if you push half your stack then the rest on the flop they will have to lay down if they miss....just an idea...all depends on the situation but can be a useful play

[jayistheman]

yeah.. i'll do it with QQ

[Jubba]

I'm not a big fan of putting all of my money in preflop, but in this case you had no choice. You were able to get all of his chips in when you were a 70% favorite. He drilled one of his 3 Aces and you were sent packing. It happens. Another thing to think about is chip position. This player is the only one capable of putting you out of the tournament. I would want to stay out of his way for the most part. In this situation I may have laid down my kings (probably not) simply because if he gets lucky and catches his miracle card, then I'm out of the game...

[r18]

i feel your pain. last week i was at the final table of a live tourney, $3000 for first place. i'm on the button and i get pocket kings.i raise small, almost trying to make it seem like i'm stealing the blinds. it works too well-- the big blind reraises me all in. he's a loose player so i don't think he has aces. i call and he turns over ace 9 suited. we get a rainbow rag flop and all is well. but then of course the ace comes on turn. i was kicking myself afterwards coming up with a million things i could have done differently. but at some point you gotta get your chips in the middle (with an edge) and hope for the best.

[Vade]

I think you played it right.When someone reraises my KK or AA its an automatic all in.Fold KK if you have a read that your opponent would only reraise with AA, otherwise push.

[KDawgCometh]

you played it right, he played it very stupid. There is no need to get involved in a big pot where you can get crippled with AK, tough luck buddy, more often than not you'll have a strangle hold on that final table

[Emptyeye]

Yeah, you played it fine.Really, if you're going to do anything besides push with kings or (especially) aces, you'd better make damn sure you know how to get away from them if a scary flop comes. It's not that big a deal with kings--if an ace comes, tread cautiously, though you'll get the occasional jackass who calls you with 93s and flops a miracle two-pair--but too many people think their aces are invincible despite a board with four low cards to the straight, four to a flush that's not one of your suits, and a pair.But back to my point, you played it just fine.

[Scott31]

I'd really need to know the size of his reraise in relation to your stack in order to make a proper analysis. With that said, unless your KK reraise absolutely pot committed you, I would say it was not a good decision. Good players hate getting their money in preflop with anything less than aces. Yes, you have to race sometimes to win tourneys (and this was by no means a real race), but you were just in too good of chip position to risk it. Your typical 6th place pay is pretty horrible for the time you put in and I'm sure that someone would've busted out before you had you not pushed. This may really seem like my advice is results-oriented....it's not. My conclusion is based almost solely on your chip position, which is the most important factor at a final table. If you were the 5th stack going up against the 1st, I'd say push. If you were short stacked, I'd easily say push. But when you're in 2nd place up against THE ONLY stack that can beat you, then I say take a flop. With 6 players left, I'm cautious with my big stack, especially because the difference between 6th place pay and 5th is one of the first big pay jumps. Ignore the "Go for the win dude" statements. Tourneys, like all other poker are about money. You probably easily could've finished 4th just sitting there.

[Royal_Tour]

I agree that you played this correct.. But here is an example of when to see a flop with KK..I was 2nd chip lead, BB was chip lead. UTG raised all in. with short stack.., I decided to push all in with KK.. folds all around until chip leader called, which would have crippled him if he lost. I show KK, chip lead shows A, Q... nothin on the flop.. and ace on the turn... Now if i smooth called the short stacks all in.. I can guarantee the chip leader would have simply called without a raise.( I know this because he told me).. and with a rags flop., it would have made the chip leaders decision to call my all in post flop. nearly impossible.Thats my beef

[offsuitbluff]

yeah i guess i just have to accept lossing with them.after reading the comments above I also realize that the first hand of that final table I bluffed the same player out of a big pot with 2-4 suited. I had been playing really aggresively and hadn't seen a hand till the kings. I showed almost all my bluffs to so I think that anyone at the table was likely to play an all in with me with as little as a pair of eights.I was picking there pockets left and right, I think going all in was a great move now that i think of my own table image.would yall do the same in a cash game?

[Jubba]

Cash game, unless I'm 100% sure he has Aces, the money is in the middle. A tournament is a bit different though...

[Mr Monkey]

KDawgCometh said:

you played it right, he played it very stupid. There is no need to get involved in a big pot where you can get crippled with AK, tough luck buddy, more often than not you'll have a strangle hold on that final table

He did play it right. I didnt think the other player played it stupid. 2 good hands and unfortunetly for KK it got beat by AK. Some people may think that AK played it bad but i dont think so. AK is the 3rd or 4th best hand in holdem your only in alot of trouble against AA. What if th AK had half his stack in already preflop its an easy call so untill I know the exact chip count and how many of the AK chips were im saying it was an ok call.

[offsuitbluff]

i thought the ak call was dumb, even though my table image was that of man under the influence.Ak for all your chips is to big a gamble at that point in the tourney. agasint a pair its roughly even and against two live cards its still not so anvantageous as to risk you tourney life on. If had a weaker ace then his oddes on winning would be roughly the same as mine winning with the Kings, but thats his best case scenario.I say it was dumb but its not a complete donkey move given that I had the table image i did. I had made some bluffs with hands alot worse then weak aces.

[Mr Monkey]

When was the last time u seen anyone fold AK that late in a tourney, if your on the bubble then i would probably fold but after investing some chips into the pot im not going to be folding my AK that late in a tourney. The blinds generally get big toward the end and to win the tourney your going to have to take a shot sooner or later. U just hope he dont have AA . With the table image u said u had its an easy call.

[lind0]

How about just calling before the flop and trying to trap the other man. If he raises it after you call, then you could move in on him. If he checks and an ace comes down, you can play the hand slowly and hope to show it down or still get away from it without losing too much. If he checks and no ace comes down, then you have lots of options and if he happens to catch something decent, you've got him for a bunch of chips. However, given your table image at the time and that fact that you had already raised, I think you made the right move.

[GaryMorris]

KDawgCometh said:

you played it right, he played it very stupid. There is no need to get involved in a big pot where you can get crippled with AK, tough luck buddy, more often than not you'll have a strangle hold on that final table

Here's an interesting question. Lets say you are at the final table with 6k on the line for 1st place and pick up AK unsuited in middle to late position. There is a better who bets about $200 into a $400 pot, followed by a call and then a raise of another $2000. What do you do with your hand?