162 replies to this topic

[FOOSE1]

One of the arguments I have seen from non-believers is this: They claim that most people who believe in GOD do so because they were brought up in church and that is what they have been taught . . . the term brainwashing rings a bell.

To me there is some validity to this in some cases. I'm sure there are believers that believe just because they have been taught that their whole lives.

But . . . couldn't that be true the other way around? I mean, if you have never set foot in a church or your parents were non-believers . . . wouldn't that affect your own beliefs?

So my question is this. How many of you non-believers will admit that they either 1) have never been to church or 2) believe the way they do because their parents were non believers also?

[mrdannyg]

I consider myself what you term a "non-believer," though I identify as Jewish which is what my family is. My family went to synagogue once a week pretty consistently when I was growing up, and we observed most traditions of a non-orthodox household.

Also, the term "non-believers" is fallacious. It very clearly implies that there is something to believe in, and we choose not to. That would be like addressing you as "unaccepters," or maybe something a little more clever like "fairy tale believers."

[76clubs]

I am fairly sure I'm a non-believer, but I go to church every sunday, and at least one of my parents is a believer.

Also, the term "non-believers" is fallacious. It very clearly implies that there is something to believe in, and we choose not to. That would be like addressing you as "unaccepters," or maybe something a little more clever like "fairy tale believers."

LOL

[Oneeydjaq]

One of the arguments I have seen from non-believers is this: They claim that most people who believe in GOD do so because they were brought up in church and that is what they have been taught . . . the term brainwashing rings a bell.

To me there is some validity to this in some cases. I'm sure there are believers that believe just because they have been taught that their whole lives.

But . . . couldn't that be true the other way around? I mean, if you have never set foot in a church or your parents were non-believers . . . wouldn't that affect your own beliefs?

So my question is this. How many of you non-believers will admit that they either 1) have never been to church or 2) believe the way they do because their parents were non believers also?

Believe in GOD is very vague. Are you classifying all non-christians as non believers? All non catholics? It is impossible to ignore that MOST people will tend to believe what they were brought up to believe, unless they explore other possibilities. But even then, you tend to believe based on LEARNED information. When you are born, you have no understanding of religion, no concept of God, etc. You are introduced first to whatever religion is practiced in the home, then to your peers (neighbors, other kids in school, teachers, etc.), and ultimately society. This topic is far too deep to discuss in one post. But for sake of your post, I am a non-christian although I do believe in a power greater than myself. I have been to church on many occasions, and my parents were both christians.

[MDXS]

I'm an an athiest. My mother was/is Catholic, my father was/is Baptist. I went to church every week (sometimes Catholic, sometimes Baptist) until I was 15. I went to CCD and attended Catholic school from 6th grade through high school.

So I have plenty of experience with attending Church/Church functions. My parents both were/are believers in one faith or another.

In my experience, children who have parents who are unbelievers are encouraged to explore different religions and figure things out for themselves. Children with religious parents are brainwashed to the degree that their parents believe.

[JadeTiger]

I'm an an athiest. My mother was/is Catholic, my father was/is Baptist. I went to church every week (sometimes Catholic, sometimes Baptist) until I was 15. I went to CCD and attended Catholic school from 6th grade through high school.

This always bugged me when people claimed to be an atheist. I dont want to start something here but can you really prove that God DOESNT exist? It seems that those who claim to be atheist are really just agnostic.

[BearCanada]

Hello,

I think there are many believers who were not raised in a religious environament that environment. I also think that if you are raised being told something is a fact and that your belief in that fact measures whether you or good or bad it is going to be difficult to challenge that belief or try to examine it objectively. I think so called non-believers can also have a deep and profound influence on children to think a certain way. However, it is possible to step outside your families belief system. I know this because I was raised in the church. I went every Sunday and my parents still do. When I was a teenager I started to be exposed to many other points of view. The first question that occoured to be is why Muslims, Jews, Hindu's and the majority of the world didn't believe that Jesus was the son of God? How could they all be wrong or misguided? That's where my questioning started. I then became angry, not at my parents but at the church, at having a belief structure imposed upon me. My parents wanted me to have values and a strong sense of community, they wanted me to have all the positive aspects that come from a religiousd community and I love them for that. However, I began to see what struck me as a level of hypocrisy that was rampant in most organized Christianity. It seemed to me that if there was one message Jesus was trying to get across, one message above all others it was that none shall judge but God. None of us should be casting judgement on others. Yet all I could see was judgement. All I could here was church leaders preaching about the right and wrong way to live and believe. The right and wrong relationship with God. There are exceptions to all rules and generalizations but that was my experience. In my anger I lost all faith. I labelled myself an athiest. To make a long story shorter. I have grown up and see things much more balanced now. I believe there is something larger than human exsistence. I believe in an ambigious spirituality and I believe that I am on a journey to know my spirit and to understand the place I have in this world as it relates to everyone else in this world.

I think Christianity has one thing right if nothing else. We are all sinners, we are all flawed. If that meant that our focus was on maximizing the good we do in the world and minimizing the harm we cause to others. I wish I had the discipline to live my life like that. It is an ideal I hold and I'm working towards living my life that way. I try to know myself and to know my insecurities, the power of my desires and the traps of my limitations. By knowing these things I will get closer to my ideal. However when this struggle is judged to have a right or a wrong way, it distracts me from the journey itself. When I have toi worry about a perpetual and eternal punishment if I don't measure up, it distracts me from my journey. So organized religion creates to many distractions for me. If Christianity really followed and listned to the teachings of Christ, maybe I could have continued to be a believer. Christ reached out to those who were seen as the most immoral and said that they too were God's children. I just don't see it these days.

So, to get off my rant and soap box and get back to the original question. I think believers and non-believers can strongly influence their families and loved ones. I think it's difficult but not impossible to get outside of your environment.

Sorry I got off on a tangent there. My two sense and please let me be clear, I am relating my experience and my truth. I do not begrudge you yours, whatever that may be.

-Bear

[mrdannyg]

This always bugged me when people claimed to be an atheist. I dont want to start something here but can you really prove that God DOESNT exist? It seems that those who claim to be atheist are really just agnostic.

I agree that many agnostics label themselves atheistic, but it seems to me just as impossible to prove that he doesn't exist as it is to prove that he does, and yet millions/billions seem willing to accept some proof of that.

[MDXS]

This always bugged me when people claimed to be an atheist. I dont want to start something here but can you really prove that God DOESNT exist? It seems that those who claim to be atheist are really just agnostic.

Let's not get bogged down in semantics. I don't believe in god and it's not up to me to prove he doesn't exist, it's up to believers to prove that he does.

[BearCanada]

This always bugged me when people claimed to be an atheist. I dont want to start something here but can you really prove that God DOESNT exist? It seems that those who claim to be atheist are really just agnostic.

You're right, you can't prove that God doesn't exsist. Faith isn't a question of proof either way. It's about belief. You believe he exsists and see evidence of it or your don't and see no evidence of it. What believers see as proof non believers see as science, coincidence or some other explanation that makes sense to them.

As I understand it Athiests fully believe there is no God. Agnostics simply don't subscribe to the conventions of organized religion and question the nature of spirituality. They question wether humanity can ever have a true understanding of spirituality. My personal take as someone who labels themselves now as an agnostic is that it if there is power grerater than all of humanity then it would require an absured level of arrogance to think you could understand it enough to lead and teach others a proper way to learn, love and live within it. Perhaps that is an overly cyunical or naive point of view. I unlike many others am able to admit I don't "know" and that I am capable about being wrong about anything involving this topic and many others. Especially poker.

-Bear

[JadeTiger]

Let's not get bogged down in semantics. I don't believe in god and it's not up to me to prove he doesn't exist, it's up to believers to prove that he does.

But the basis of your 'belief' as an atheist is that you dont believe he exists. That, in and of itself, says you can prove that he doesnt, otherwise your belief is based on something you can't prove. Most self professed 'atheists' I know are very analytical people and tend to have a scientific approach to almost everything. Why would your core belief system be based on something you cant prove? That is my only question. At least an agnostic takes a claim where he isnt sure if God exists or not, and lives his life accordingly.

Do you believe that wind exists? Can you prove that it does? Most would say that even though no one can see wind, it is proven by its effects. No one would deny that wind exists. But to say God doesnt exist seems to mean you have proof.

This is why I think there are no true atheists, only agnostics. But thats just my opinion.

[BearCanada]

But the basis of your 'belief' as an atheist is that you dont believe he exists. That, in and of itself, says you can prove that he doesnt, otherwise your belief is based on something you can't prove. Most self professed 'atheists' I know are very analytical people and tend to have a scientific approach to almost everything. Why would your core belief system be based on something you cant prove? That is my only question. At least an agnostic takes a claim where he isnt sure if God exists or not, and lives his life accordingly.

Do you believe that wind exists? Can you prove that it does? Most would say that even though no one can see wind, it is proven by its effects. No one would deny that wind exists. But to say God doesnt exist seems to mean you have proof.

This is why I think there are no true atheists, only agnostics. But thats just my opinion.

Negatives can't be proven. You can not prove the non-existance of something. So if to be an athiest you most be able to prove the non-exsistance of God, then your're right there are no athiests. It's a self-fulfilling circular argument.

If you are saying that people who are athiests are hypcrites because they demand proof of God when they themselves can't prove he doesn't exsist well this is also a circular argument (see the point above).

The dictionary defines athiest as " someone who denies the existence of god". No mention of belief or proof. So there you go, athiests are just people in denial.

So Athiests deny God exists and you deny Atheists exsist. So can we prove Atheists exsist or should we just take it on faith?

-Bear

[speedz99]

I was raised Jewish.

I'm more agnostic than atheist...but it's close.

Let's not do the whole "you can't prove it" thing. Nobody can prove whether or not "God" exists. That's why arguments between atheists and religious people can go in circles forever.

And FOOSE, it's annoying that everything is Church to you. That just shows that you don't at all separate YOUR religion from the belief in God. That's my biggest problem with Christians.

[JadeTiger]

I was raised Jewish.

I'm more agnostic than atheist...but it's close.

Let's not do the whole "you can't prove it" thing. Nobody can prove whether or not "God" exists. That's why arguments between atheists and religious people can go in circles forever.

And FOOSE, it's annoying that everything is Church to you. That just shows that you don't at all separate YOUR religion from the belief in God. That's my biggest problem with Christians.

Well I guess that depends on your definition of God. Thats a pretty bold statement who cant prove his own beliefs.

[mrdannyg]

But the basis of your 'belief' as an atheist is that you dont believe he exists. That, in and of itself, says you can prove that he doesnt, otherwise your belief is based on something you can't prove. Most self professed 'atheists' I know are very analytical people and tend to have a scientific approach to almost everything. Why would your core belief system be based on something you cant prove? That is my only question. At least an agnostic takes a claim where he isnt sure if God exists or not, and lives his life accordingly.

Do you believe that wind exists? Can you prove that it does? Most would say that even though no one can see wind, it is proven by its effects. No one would deny that wind exists. But to say God doesnt exist seems to mean you have proof.

This is why I think there are no true atheists, only agnostics. But thats just my opinion.

Though I am not one of them, I do think there are people that consider themselves atheists, by that definition. Most use arguments that are not particularly cogent, but there are some which are just as valid as most proofs of the existence of god.

[speedz99]

Well I guess that depends on your definition of God. Thats a pretty bold statement who cant prove his own beliefs.

Come on. Nobody can prove that God exists...unless they use the Bible as proof, which is just laughable.

[JadeTiger]

Though I am not one of them, I do think there are people that consider themselves atheists, by that definition. Most use arguments that are not particularly cogent, but there are some which are just as valid as most proofs of the existence of god.

a·the·ist (th-st)
n. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

You know someone who has proven God doesnt exist!?

Come on. Nobody can prove that God exists...unless they use the Bible as proof, which is just laughable.

Who said anything about the Bible? Clearly your view of God is limited to a Christian perspective. I personally come from the perspective but it doesnt mean that a belief in a higher power that doesnt fit the Christian belief would be classified outside the atheistic view.

[speedz99]

You know someone who has proven God doesnt exist!?

Who said anything about the Bible? Clearly your view of God is limited to a Christian perspective. I personally come from the perspective but it doesnt mean that a belief in a higher power that doesnt fit the Christian belief would be classified outside the atheistic view.

Honestly, now you're running circles around yourself. I'm not sure I even need to be involved in the conversation anymore.

[JadeTiger]

Honestly, now you're running circles around yourself. I'm not sure I even need to be involved in the conversation anymore.

I didnt ask you to respond in the first place.

[speedz99]

I didnt ask you to respond in the first place.

Oh. I didn't realize you were given a written invitation to join the thread. I'll wait for mine before joining next time.