ajs folds turn-party $2/4

[wrto4556 0]

MP3 is 35/6/1 after 30-40 hands.Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converterPreflop: Hero is MP2 with J , A . 1 fold, UTG+1 calls.Flop: (7.50 SB) 5 , J , 8 (3 players)UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, UTG+1 calls.Turn: (8.25 BB) T (3 players)UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds.Final Pot: 11.25 BBIt seems standard, but I wonder if the pot is big enough to call down with no redraws to a flush.

[Vade 0]

Probably have to fold.Cold calling two before the flop and then raising a preflop raiser my best guess is Over Hearts (AK-probably not would have 3 bet, AQ or KQ)2nd best guess is 88. Would explain the two cold and the raise on the flop.Either way I'm not liking my A-J all that much anymore.

[wrto4556 0]

Either way I'm not liking my A-J all that much anymore.

Me either.

[KDawgCometh 2]

it was a good fold. An LPP being that excited about the hand to me is screaming set and not flush. I don't think an LPP would raise with a flush draw on the flop. Set of eights seems the most reasonable hand here

[NormanHaupt 0]

I don't like AJ, and I don't like JJ. Both suck really, really badly.

[Smasharoo 0]

It seems standard, but I wonder if the pot is big enough to call down with no redraws to a flush.No redraws to a straight, either.No redraws to much, really.I'd check/call it down when the Th hits the turn. What's the point of the bet? It almost *can't* be for value here.

[wrto4556 0]

It seems standard, but I wonder if the pot is big enough to call down with no redraws to a flush.No redraws to a straight, either.No redraws to much, really.I'd check/call it down when the Th hits the turn.  What's the point of the bet?  It almost *can't* be for value here.

Why check call? If I bet and am raised, I am beat and only lose one bet finding out. If I check/call I have to pay 2 bets to keep him honest and more times than not he has me way behind. Set, Flush, straight. All things that have me drawing dead. It's either bet/fold or check/fold. Because I don't want to call him down on this board.

[Smasharoo 0]

Why check call? If I bet and am raised, I am beat and only lose one bet finding out. If I check/call I have to pay 2 bets to keep him honest and more times than not he has me way behind. Set, Flush, straight. All things that have me drawing dead. It's either bet/fold or check/fold. Because I don't want to call him down on this board.We've been through this before, because folding the best hand in a pot this sized to a bluff here is horrible and paying off a single extra BB is no big deal. People do occasionally raise without the best hand.

[wrto4556 0]

I'm not just paying off one extra BB, I'm paying off two. He's passive and has shown alot of strength.

[Smasharoo 0]

I'm not just paying off one extra BB, I'm paying off two. He's passive and has shown alot of strength.You're paying off one. You give him one when you bet the turn. You don't know what to do if he just calls. Do you bet the river and fold there to a raise?Betitng this turn is pointless, it accomplishes nothing. What's the point of doing it? *Why* are you betting out? Value? Fold equity? If it's "information" you might as well check/fold if you're going to fold to a raise.

[wrto4556 0]

So what's my line?And more importantly...why?

[Smasharoo 0]

So what's my line?And more importantly...why?Well, that's up to you. I check/call the turn and see what happens of the river. IT's a lot easier to fold there to a 4th heart and a lot easier to call one more if the board pairs and I've just caught up to TJ or whatnot.You're paying this bet on the turn *either way*. Why not get something for your money, like a look at the river and possible a cheap showdown if the river card is scary.

[Jay 0]

and a lot easier to call one more if the board pairs and I've just caught up to TJ or whatnot.

How does board pairing make hero ahead of TJ?

[jayistheman 0]

i demand you change your name

[Smasharoo 0]

How does board pairing make hero ahead of TJ?Doesn't, bad example on my part.

[wrto4556 0]

So what's my line?And more importantly...why?Well, that's up to you. I check/call the turn and see what happens of the river. IT's a lot easier to fold there to a 4th heart and a lot easier to call one more if the board pairs and I've just caught up to TJ or whatnot.You're paying this bet on the turn *either way*. Why not get something for your money, like a look at the river and possible a cheap showdown if the river card is scary.

Why would you Check/call the turn?We could give a free card to a flush if he checks behind us.Thinking it over, I think B/c C/c is the best line.

[Awful 0]

So what's my line?And more importantly...why?Well, that's up to you. I check/call the turn and see what happens of the river. IT's a lot easier to fold there to a 4th heart and a lot easier to call one more if the board pairs and I've just caught up to TJ or whatnot.You're paying this bet on the turn *either way*. Why not get something for your money, like a look at the river and possible a cheap showdown if the river card is scary.

Why would you Check/call the turn?We could give a free card to a flush if he checks behind us.Thinking it over, I think B/c C/c is the best line.

I check/call, check/call vs. normal opposition. Your #'s say this guy was loose-passive? I think you still check-call both because you can't make him make a mistake with further betting. He's too loose to fold a better hand, and the pot's a bit on the large side to not show down TPTK given some of the garbage I've seen from when these guys take that thing they heard about aggression and grossly misapply it. EDIT: Furthermore, the aggression he has shown means that he won't be calling down with an inferior holding (forgot that part).Flop raise/3-bet call REEKS of being a free card play. Then again, there's a possible straight draw too, so you can't assume you're beaten straight away.Lack of redraws means I'm drawing almost dead when behind the most typical hands faced here. Your fold when raised is OK too, but I want the combination of information and a shot at the pot with my TPTK at an actual showdown for my 2 bets. Getting raised here SUCKS due to this lack of redraws.Leading out from EP previously means you likely aren't holding the flush; while the card is an equal scare to both players, you're doing something very atypical for the flush and you don't have the requisite fold equity to compensate that bet for your lack of redraws.Lack of position means I can't get any discount on a showdown no matter what I do, so there are no FPS options.My surface-level evaluation of TPTK there: Too good to lay down, too bad to bet and keep getting raised. Fish it up for that hand. Well played flop, too. I think the liklihood of being beat now is greater than the liklihood of being beat by a free card (opponent having and hitting a random heart or OESD) by a degree that makes the 2 nearly equivalent, especially considering that a 4th heart will get checked down by all straights it fills and most of the flushes.If you had Ah, I'd play like you did, I'm a big fan of betting with outs.BTW, fascinating hand.

[digitalmonkey 929]

i demand you change your name

Uh oh...now it looks like Jayistheman is just Jay's biggest fan!

[jayistheman 0]

goddamnit

[wrto4556 0]

Awful, In HEPFAP it says to bet the turn with hands (if alrady beaten) have no outs. Why am I not doing that here? I'm guessing it's because of the size of the pot and the fact that I can't fold TPTK at the risk of losing it. So, I go into C/c mode because I feel my hand is too good to fold, but not good enough to bet. It's just a shot in the dark, help me out.So, this is one of the times I deviate from that "standard". Is there any other times?PS. What the hell do you mean fascinating. This hand hurt my brain!

[Rocketwadster 0]

I agree with Smash on this one. Using simple math:If you bet the turn, you have put in 1. If he raises, you either call another 1 (so now 2) or you fold (so you lost 1). If you check (cost you 0), he will either check (still cost you 0), bet (cost you 1), or fold (by mistake, still cost you 0). So, the best thing to do is to check, as at most it will only cost you 1 to see another card and make your decision there.

[Awful 0]

Awful, In HEPFAP it says to bet the turn with hands (if alrady beaten) have no outs. Why am I not doing that here? I'm guessing it's because of the size of the pot and the fact that I can't fold TPTK at the risk of losing it. So, I go into C/c mode because I feel my hand is too good to fold, but not good enough to bet. It's just a shot in the dark, help me out.PS. What the hell do you mean fascinating. This hand hurt my brain!

That's pretty much it. Some chance of being good, no outs, decent size pot, that was my reasoning. What you've represented on the flop guide my reasoning, too. Furthermore, that section in HEFAP advocates your line of bet/folding, so Bet/Call, Check/Call is, using the same assumptions, spewing 2 bets, my way loses only 1 more with some chances of taking down a pot as well.Basically, the assumption that you will be raised only if beaten badly is predicated on the card being as scary to your opponent as you. A flush draw doesn't 3-bet just 1 opponent; the flush card is either something that completes them, or enables a bluff at worst. This means even when raised, you had a chance to be best, and therefore that raise makes you sad. Think of the chance of winning as if it were a small select group of outs, like the 2 pair example in that section.The hurting the brain is exactly what I meant by fascinating... much more thought and focus as opposed to the "do I raise AA preflop?" threads I think after C/c, C/c, Bet/fold is the next best option, though.[/b]

[Abbaddabba 0]

The only thing that you'd be alright with here knowing how he played it, is a J/K, J/Q or A/J, all with the heart draw. Anything else that he could conceivably be betting on and you've got between 0 and 5 outs, with a lean towards the zero.

[Smasharoo 0]

. So, I go into C/c mode because I feel my hand is too good to fold, but not good enough to bet.That's exactly right.

[akishore 0]

this is a very interesting hand. i originally would have B/c, C/c but after reading all the replies, i understand why C/c, C/c is the best move. in all honesty, though, i would have bet the turn hoping to have at least some fold equity (considering i three-bet on the flop, he called) and hoping to represent the flush, as well as making sure he doesn't get a free card if he has an ace of hearts (though what possible hand he could have except A Jx is beyond me).great post, wrto, and thanks to all for the replies.aseem