18 replies to this topic

[rog]

First of all, I'm pretty much a newbie. There's one hand bothering from my most recent online game so I thought I'd ask for opinions from wiser heads than mine. Sitting in the BB with Kd 7d. Everyone calls the blinds so I get a free flop. Flop comes Kh 5d 2d. So now I've got top pair and a K high flush draw. I go all-in, get one caller, and end up making the flush but losing to A high flush. My stack was good relative to blinds in the game, but below average at the table. Is the all-in too agressive in that situation?Rog

[NYSPOKER]

If you were short stacked, I think you may have had a hard time getting away from this hand, anyway. Just unlucky, move-on - Forget about it.

[EgyptianMagician]

If your all-in was an overbet of the pot and the only thing the other guy had was an ace suited to the flop with no pair than he made a bad call.. but you weren't gonna easily get away from a king high flush anyway if you made a smaller bet.

[Ebonwoulfe]

Hmm... yeah, it's a strange question. Unfortunately, we all want more information than you provided to give you a good answer!Let's say he had something like A Q against your K 7 . He was drawing. You had a killer hand here. The only victories left in the deck for him were any A and the 7 remaining s. 10 victories. Granted, if he hit any of his ten, then well you were screwed. As well, it wouldn't hurt to know his other card. If as well he had the 3 or 4 , he had an over that could possibly win if it hit, a straight draw, and the nut flush draw. You might want to go to www.cardplayer.com and use their odds calculator to see just how ahead or behind you really were.I pissed off one guy because I called his all-in with my A 10 to a flop of Q 9 8 , but I had a 53% chance of winning the hand even if he had the Q! I was on a "draw", but I had the dominating position in the hand! It would have been a HUGE mistake for me to fold.Oh I won that hand with the flush by the way.

[jogsxyz]

Is there an official poker glossary for defining terms? What percentage favorite do you need to be to qualify? You should be at least 90% favorite else far too many hands qualify. I've had as many as 5 90% favorites lose within a week's time. Therefore it must be a common occurrance.

[JFarrell20]

Yes that is too aggressive. You had no idea what your opponents had. Only go all in when you KNOW what they have. Someone could have had K with better kicker... ace high flush draw (was the case), a set... two pairs.... don't just push all in man. You were very strong, but you had no idea if others were stronger. Remember, the strength of your hand is changing constantly. Let this be a lesson to ya. You said you were below average in chips but still in good shape.... so find a better pot to put all your chips into! You got time!

[Smasharoo]

JFarrell20 said:

Yes that is too aggressive.  You had no idea what your opponents had.  Only go all in when you KNOW what they have.  Someone could have had K with better kicker... ace high flush draw (was the case), a set... two pairs.... don't just push all in man.  You were very strong, but you had no idea if others were stronger.  Remember, the strength of your hand is changing constantly.  Let this be a lesson to ya.  You said you were below average in chips but still in good shape.... so find a better pot to put all your chips into! You got time!

That's horrible advice really. You have top pair and the 2nd nut flush draw. Remmeber that in NL it takes LESS to push all in and it does to CALL all in. Your play was fine, his call was marginal unless the overlay from the other limpers was fairly large.

[adamkadmon]

not really a hell of a lot you could of done. Just one of the many situations you will encounter. Six of one half dozen of another.

[maxone22]

This one kind of lingers on my mind. comments, critiques welcomed.$30+3 SNG, STT, Down to 4 handedpays to 3Player 1 $7600 - Solid Player 2 $1200 -Tight/passivePlayer 3 $2600 - Varies :-) Player 4 $3600 - ManiacBlinds 300-600Player 3 on the buttonPlayer 4, SBPlayer 1 BB.Player 2 folds.On the Button: Ad, AsManiac has been up and down, hand prior lost big to player 1.I can't predict how player 4 will respond, he's bet and reraised and called on about any two up to now. He's had a good amount of luck. I'm fairly certain player 1 will fold to any bet unless he has a premium hand. I bet it 1200. Player 4 calls, player 1 folds.Flop Ac, 8d, 4dThinking I've been blessed, I want to get all I can. I check. Player 4 checks.Turn: QdI don't see the next move as making a differance. If I bet and he folds, I wasn't going to get anymore. If I check, and he checks, I don't see how giving a card now can hurt anymore than the last did. If he bets or reraises, I'm committed to calling. I check. He bets all in. I finish 4th. His hand: 9d, 7dWhen I look back at it in retrospect, I can't judge it any other way than horrible play. But then, I know the outcome. Other thoughts on how this hand should be played? Or the strategy of slow playing in this situation.

[NYSPOKER]

Shove it all in pre-flop. If he calls, he made a mistake and got lucky. Calling 1/3 of his stack with a one gap suited connector is still a bad call but, making it an additional $1,700, instead of $900 to call, makes it a tougher decision for him.You run the risk of only taking the blinds but, that would be enough to propel you into the money.

[Wilderness]

Yeah, I think you have to get it all-in before the flop as well. Besides Player 1, the rest of you three are all short-stacked given those blinds. You've got a great hand, and even if you only pick up the blinds, that's a big boost to your stack. He'd be an idiot if he called your all-in, although he'd be an idiot who got lucky given that flop and turn.

[maxone22]

I tend to agree. The all in would take the blinds and a highly probably ITM finish. Those As' looked pretty, and I got greedy. By his play, there was the outside chance he would've called. But I would've been able to let it go a bit easier knowing I didn't leave the door open.This particular hand (A flopped set) has bit my arse hard the last few weeks. Normally my weak points tend to lean toward being too conservative. For some reason flopping a set gives me too much confidence.

[Duff_Man]

With the blinds that high move all in pre-flop. And never slow play your hand if there's a flush on the board, even if it's a monster. If I didn't move all-in pre-flop I'm sure as heck gonna after that flop to drive him out if he's on a flush draw. And if he calls anyways on just a flush draw then remember his name and sit down at every table he does cause your almost guarnteed to get your money back.Duff

[NYSPOKER]

maxone22 said:

For some reason flopping a set gives me too much confidence.

A flopped set is a strong hand but, it is no monster. It should not usually be played slowly. If somebody hit their TP w/ or w/o TK, they are going to pay to see more cards - make them. If they are on weak draws, you do not want them seeing cards for free.Play set fast, trips faster. Use the resulting action to determine how to continue.

[whodatdare]

I think you should have put maniac all in right after the flop, as he had nothing but a 3 flush? Putting the pressure on him after the flop forces him to a decision for all his money while being in a very weak position

[JFarrell20]

Smasharoo said:

JFarrell20 said:

Yes that is too aggressive.  You had no idea what your opponents had.  Only go all in when you KNOW what they have.  Someone could have had K with better kicker... ace high flush draw (was the case), a set... two pairs.... don't just push all in man.  You were very strong, but you had no idea if others were stronger.  Remember, the strength of your hand is changing constantly.  Let this be a lesson to ya.  You said you were below average in chips but still in good shape.... so find a better pot to put all your chips into! You got time!

That's horrible advice really. You have top pair and the 2nd nut flush draw. Remmeber that in NL it takes LESS to push all in and it does to CALL all in. Your play was fine, his call was marginal unless the overlay from the other limpers was fairly large.

Have you agreed with one thing I've said on here? I don't think so. Are you out to get me??? You are one of these guys who hasn't been playing long enough to understand when you are beat. You call with any monster hand, and if you get knocked out you go "Well, I had a monster, I HAD to call." Didn't you see Josh Arieh's laydown in the '04 WSOP? What about Farha's last year? You would have never made those laydowns. Champion poker players do. You are still wet-behind-the-ears. Go stroke it to Johnny Damon or something...

[jayboogie]

personally i think it was a good push and you should have bet it aggressively. Sometimes, this happens. I don't know if he should have called you on that draw depending what his other card was. When you pushed, you were the favorite, so you made the right play. I don't think you were going to get outta the hand anyways when you hit your flush, you would have pushed, so it really would have made no difference. He just outdrew you.

[theben]

i see you are getting conflicting advice here. let me try to help.whenever you turn a pair and a flush draw on the flop with suited hole cards, you have a big hand. if you were outkicked on the flop, you 12 outs. that makes you only a small dog. in spots like this where you flop a pair/flush draw, its good to move in on the flop if the pot is worth stealing and you dont think you'll be called. a nice draw/pair is hard to toss on the flop.if somebody had moved in before you for a lot of money, its not that hard to fold (figure its you being outkicker with 12 outs...maybe a set if its real bad). if nobody is showing strength its harder to release.little tips:1)please note that on flops like this you might checkraise all in if you didnt feel much strength behind you.2) you had top pair. if you got called, you very well may also be against top pair. if you had middle pair and a flush draw, you normally would have additional outs for trips. your less likely to have the best hand on the flop, but you usually have more outs.3)one problem with having top pair and a big draw is that you most likely dont have the best pair/kicker combo. but if you move in a lot of chips, you should get people to fold hands as good as KQ. maybe even AK from better players who for some reason limped in. (good players won risk thier whole stack in an unrasied pot with just TPTK). even if you get called, you have a good shot for outdrawing.4) evaluate the tightness/looseness of your opponents. against bad players who call off too much with marginal hands, semibluffing goes way down in value. since there was no raise before the flop, its unlikely AK is out. and if you are playing against good players, the only hand you'll worry about being called by is a set. if the pot is worth taking and it looks like you'll be able to snatch it, moving is is a good play

[maxone22]

whodatdare said:

I think you should have put maniac all in right after the flop, as he had nothing but a 3 flush? Putting the pressure on him after the flop forces him to a decision for all his money while being in a very weak position

Four flush. But don't remind me. My post flop move on this one was terrible.