15 replies to this topic

[ElToasto]

Hey guys, i'm relatively new to this forum and not sure if this topic has been covered or not. I've been playing limit he for a few years now and looking to plug some leaks in my game. My question is it really ever a proper play to call or raise with a small pocket pair(9-2) in a multiway pot. I'm not sure of the odds but isn't it like 22-1 to hit a set on the flop. I understand implied odds but a pot that ends up with at least 22 big bets seems pretty rare to me. Any advice would be much welcomed. thanks

[SapphireTiger]

8-1 you'll hit your set on the flop. fold the smallest pocket pairs UTG, limp with them wherever else...or you can cold call 1 raise if you want. All of them are still fairly profitable (although the cold call is marginal).

[ElToasto]

so its 8-1 to hit a set. damn, thought i found a leak and you burst my bubble. Appreciate the help though, thanks.

[Emptyeye]

Yeah, it's 22:1 that ONE card gives you a set. 8:1 that you hit it on the flop.

[MasterLJ]

You also have to remember that low pocket pair significantly lose value when it's multiway. For every other player in the pot, there is a higher chance of over-cards hitting on the board.I play mostly NL where I can generally isolate very easily. This is just not the case online at micro stakes with people capping things like Q 10. If you can see the flop for 1 bet, play them. If not, fold them.

[BigMoney74]

ElToasto said:

Hey guys, i'm relatively new to this forum and not sure if this topic has been covered or not. I've been playing limit he for a few years now and looking to plug some leaks in my game. My question is it really ever a proper play to call or raise with a small pocket pair(9-2) in a multiway pot. I'm not sure of the odds but isn't it like 22-1 to hit a set on the flop. I understand implied odds but a pot that ends up with at least 22 big bets seems pretty rare to me. Any advice would be much welcomed. thanks

It depends on your stack and if you feel like a gamble. Case in point. I was in a 2/5 PL game up against a preflop raiser that I know to be very tight, so I put him on at least 10-10. In this game you can bring in a raise of 5X the bb so he bets $25. I am the only caller and have the button with 3-3. I am prepared to let my 3's go if I miss my set. I also know that he will make a potsized bet if he doesn't hit his set to protect is big pair or check if overcards come. The flop is 3-9-6 He bets the pot which all but guranteed he had an overpair. I reraise pot and he pushes in all his chips with QQ the set of treys held up and I win $260.00. The way I look at it is if it is 8-1 to hit your set and your confident you can get at least 8 to 1 on your $25 pre flop call go for it. Again you must know your who your up against and if someone reraises the first bet of $25 after you the implied odds are not in your favor. My math could be wrong but this is how I play it anyway.

[Shooter_McGavin]

I play NL exclusively and small pocket pairs are my favorite hands. I actually prefer to play them in multi-way or raised pots (I'll call up to 3xthe BB), the reason being that when I hit my small I'm more likely to get paid off, especially if they hold an overpair. Simply put, the implied odds on small pocket pairs are massive. Sure, 7 out of 8 times you will have to fold after the flop but when you hit you can break someone.

[Absolute]

Also ElToasto, if you search the Strategy Forum, you will find tons of threads about this subject that will help you.

[wrto4556]

Yes. And even though it's 8-1 to hit a set on the flop. You have huge implied odds and that makes it generally correct to call getting something as small as, say, 5-1.PS. 99 isn't a small pocket pair. :wink:

[Vade]

wrto4556 said:

Yes. And even though it's 8-1 to hit a set on the flop. You have huge implied odds and that makes it generally correct to call getting something as small as, say, 5-1.PS. 99 isn't a small pocket pair.  :wink:

Unless you're in texas, where they call QQ a small pair

[RonBurgundy]

Vade said:

wrto4556 said:

Yes. And even though it's 8-1 to hit a set on the flop. You have huge implied odds and that makes it generally correct to call getting something as small as, say, 5-1.PS. 99 isn't a small pocket pair. :wink:

Unless you're in texas, where they call QQ a small pair

i thought everything was bigger in texas? AND wrto lives in texas

[HtotheNootch]

wrto4556 said:

Yes. And even though it's 8-1 to hit a set on the flop. You have huge implied odds and that makes it generally correct to call getting something as small as, say, 5-1.PS. 99 isn't a small pocket pair. :wink:

wrto is dead on here I'd have to say. If you're inclined to trust people like Sklansky, he states that small pairs and drawing hands go up in value in multi-way pots, while the big pairs go down. It's 8-1 against hitting a set, and you're far better off taking a shot when you've got a chance to win a pot that will pay you when you do. Not much point in running 55 into big pairs heads up, but in a six way pot, you're nearly priced in already, and the implied odds make it well worth it.

[jlgosse]

The fewer players in the pot, the better it is to play the pairs.If you raise preflop and get a caller, or someone raises you, and no high cards come on the board, then chances are your pair will still stand up, especially with only a small number of people rushing to the showdown.If you hit your set you're obviously even more likely to win, and you can use this to your advantage in more ways than one.But basically, you can judge yourself based on the bets against you on how to play the pocket pairs. If you don't mind paying a bit to see the flop/turn/river to try and hit your trips, then you should probably do it, if not, fold the pair.

[KramitDaToad]

jlgosse said:

The fewer players in the pot, the better it is to play the pairs.

we are talking about small pocket pairs, the correct definition which wrto indicated is about 7's or 8's down. you want more players

jlgosse said:

If you raise preflop and get a caller, or someone raises you, and no high cards come on the board,  then chances are your pair will still stand up, especially with only a small number of people rushing to the showdown.

raising preflop with small pocket pairs is rarely correct.

jlgosse said:

If you hit your set you're obviously even more likely to win, and you can use this to your advantage in more ways than one.

really there is only one way - get more money in the pot

jlgosse said:

But basically, you can judge yourself based on the bets against you on how to play the pocket pairs. If you don't mind paying a bit to see the flop/turn/river to try and hit your trips, then you should probably do it, if not, fold the pair.

don't play on beyond the flop if you miss. thats what fish do.heads up is a special case, but otherwise if you miss, run

[MarionSauce]

I thought it was 7.5 to 1? But me and math, not good friends.Limping in is good with anything less than 10's

[TheMathProf]

MarionSauce said:

I thought it was 7.5 to 1? But me and math, not good friends.

Yes, but we could be... :oops: Ahem.MarionSauce is correct.There are 50 unseen cards prior to the flop.If we only want the probability of hitting a set or better (with your pocket pair), then we need to calculate the odds of a set not hitting and subtract from 1.So 1 - (48/50 * 47/49 * 46/48 ) = .11755, which is approximately 7.5:1.Also, keep in mind that these aren't the only playable flops with your small pocket pairs, though. For instance, if you're playing a pair of 5's, then the flop of 3-4-6 is pretty decent for you with the OESD. This improves your odds slightly, but to the point where I'd rather not calculate them.Your friendly neighborhood Math Prof.