27 replies to this topic

[timwakefield]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1200 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP3 (t36206)
CO (t9493)
Button (t65819)
Hero (t12645)
BB (t22360)
UTG (t32036)
UTG+1 (t16894)
MP1 (t49950)
MP2 (t38370)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
UTG calls t1200, 3 folds, MP3 calls t1200, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t4800) , , (4 players)
Hero bets t11370 (All-In),


Bet less? Check-raise? Just moved to the table so no reads...

[Actuary]

I'm good with it.

It looks like a move.
And with no one raising preflop, this might get checked thru.
Also, a c/r probably is seen as stronger and less likely called, at least for a big amount.

Giving a free card would blow.

some scare cards can kill your turn action; or, provide someone the hand that beats you. So adding this 4800 rigt now to your stack is super.

nh.


( although, more details like Ave stack, pos from the $$$, etc, would help. Possilby if really far from money, you'd want to risk it and milk it with a smaller bet here)

[timwakefield]

This is from the $3 rebuy on Stars, so despite the large chipstacks it's fairly far from the bubble.

[Actuary]

This is from the $3 rebuy on Stars, so despite the large chipstacks it's fairly far from the bubble.

you got to put that stuff in there

Still in Rebuy phase?

it's an easy push, $3 Buyin.

[timwakefield]

It was deep in, blinds at 600/1200. Maybe 500 left with 200 cashing.

[therrinn]

I don't like the push there - I'd much prefer to double or triple up here, even if it means I let a flush draw see two cards. Someone's probably caught some piece of that, and even if they don't like their hand, most of them will bet enough that they'll have to call your check-raise all in since you don't have that many chips relative to the pot. I really don't think people will think that you're bluffing - you showed no interest in the hand preflop, and now suddenly you're pushing all in with three players to act left on a pretty coordinated board.

[timwakefield]

I don't like the push there - I'd much prefer to double or triple up here, even if it means I let a flush draw see two cards.

Why would I want to let a flush draw see 2 cards? They're only calling on the river if they hit...

[therrinn]

Why would I want to let a flush draw see 2 cards? They're only calling on the river if they hit...

I didn't mean that it would check all the way to the river and you let them see them for free. I think that 90% of the time, someone is betting this flop. If its a bluff, then they fold to your check raise all in, and you win more than you would otherwise. If its a semi-bluff (flush or straight draw), then they'll probably call your check raise because of the pot odds and they'll get to see two cards.

The key here is getting your opponent to make a mistake. You want them to see to the river with most of their draws here - you just want them to put all their money in on the flop to do that. By going all in you're asking them to call 11370 into a pot of 16170 - a situation most players will avoid here unless they actually have the better hand (set/straight/straight-flush draw). However, if you check, you create a situation where someone can semibluff with say a flush draw, and bet 4000ish into the pot. Now when you check raise all in they're looking at calling 71370 into 20170 pot - a call that they have to make with a hand like AT clubs. They played the hand entirely reasonably, but by checkraising you put them in a situation where they had to call, even though prior to any betting, they wouldn't have been looking to call your all in on the flop.

Now of course, that assumes they're on a semi-bluff with a straight of flush draw - there are obviously a lot of other possibilities.

1) They're on a complete bluff - congratulations, you just won some extra chips that you wouldn't have if you pushed all in.

2) They have a hand -
i) they have a set - you're getting it all in anyway, regardless of whether you bet or check raise
ii) they have a worse two pair - you're getting it all in anyway, regardless of whether you bet or check raise
iii) they have a single pair - if they have top pair, maybe they'll lay it down to your check raise where they would've called the lead-out bet. If they have some other pair, they're probably folding either way, and this way you get the chips from their probe bet

3) no action at all on the flop. I find this scenario very unlikely, since we're at the point where pots with 4 people seeing the flop, even cheaply, are big enough to be worth making a play at. I think most people play pretty aggressively at this stage, especially seeing a lot of weakness in front of them. If there's no action whatsoever, that's probably a pretty good sign that no one has a big enough draw that giving them one card will hurt you.

I think that the vast majority of the time, the check raise gives you a much better chance at making some money off of this hand.

[timwakefield]

I misunderstood what you meant about letting a flush draw see two cards...I thought you meant betting out and looking for calls. I'm certainly happy to get it all in on the flop against a flush draw here.

I guess I was simply afraid of it checking around. If a 4, 5, 6 or club hits on the turn I don't like my hand nearly as much.

Also my hope was that the lead-push from a short stack would look like a bluff, getting desparate with maybe 76 or less.

[therrinn]

Also my hope was that the lead-push from a short stack would look like a bluff, getting desparate with maybe 76 or less.

I'd like this line a lot more if your stack was a bit smaller. Even if the other stacks have some middle holding, like J8, you're forcing them to commit 25-50% of their chips, which would be particulary tough to do with other big stacks to act behind them. If I was the BB holding J8 or something like that...that'd be a rough spot.

[iggymcfly]

Yeah, when you have more than 2x the pot in your stack, it doesn't look nearly as much like a bluff. I think your best chance of getting paid is to go for a C/R here or maybe even C/C and C/R the turn. In a donkfest like this though, any one of those alternatives will get action a fair amount of the time.

[Actuary]

I'm not persuaded.

[krup24]

Yeah, when you have more than 2x the pot in your stack, it doesn't look nearly as much like a bluff. I think your best chance of getting paid is to go for a C/R here or maybe even C/C and C/R the turn. In a donkfest like this though, any one of those alternatives will get action a fair amount of the time.

To me checking the flop is not an option. Board is extremely draw heavy and I wanna charge the draws. I push here as well according to my stack and pot size. 11K left and 4K in the pot I don't even hesitate pushing flop and am happy to take it down on the flop or let the flush draw chase.

[mk]

i don't like it at all. this is one of those situations where i'm either going to double up or ghn because i'm gonna be gone soon anyway. your hand is very, very strong given the situation, and worrying about giving free cards is silly at this point. you want to check this flop and hope someone bets for you either right away or on later streets. giving free cards is fine. you want people with two overcard hands to make a pair and pay you.

[therrinn]

To me checking the flop is not an option. Board is extremely draw heavy and I wanna charge the draws. I push here as well according to my stack and pot size. 11K left and 4K in the pot I don't even hesitate pushing flop and am happy to take it down on the flop or let the flush draw chase.

As for charging the draws, you don't have to bet out to charge the draws, just check raise.

As for being happy to take it down there....really? Flopping top two when I'm the short stack is definitely a time I'm looking to double up, not take down a pot that is 1/3 of my short stack and will still leave me pretty desperate.

Honestly, I think people are starting to misunderstand 'playing aggressively'. Checking here is actually the far more aggressive play - Betting out implies that you want to avoid a situation in which you're likely a substantial favorite, and given your chip protection, you just can't do that to 'charge the draws'.

[Actuary]

exactly.

- A push looks weaker and may get called more than a c/r push does.
- too many turn cards kill our action (either we lose equity, or callers)
- two pair is not a monster mulitway and the pot is already sweetened

mainly, I think I disagree on the c/r's for the fact that a push gets called a lot.

[timwakefield]

Honestly, I think people are starting to misunderstand 'playing aggressively'. Checking here is actually the far more aggressive play - Betting out implies that you want to avoid a situation in which you're likely a substantial favorite, and given your chip protection, you just can't do that to 'charge the draws'.

I wasn't trying to play it "aggressively."

I thought that pushing would maximize my chances of doubling. That flop is both too favorable and too risky to check it from the SB in my view. At least that's what I was thinking when I made the play.

At this point I'm kind of torn as to whether the best play is to push or to check-raise all-in.


I can post results if you guys are interested, but I'm not sure they'll add to the discussion.

[mk]

Honestly, I think people are starting to misunderstand 'playing aggressively'. Checking here is actually the far more aggressive play.

yes.

[timwakefield]

yes.

Why are we trying to be "aggressive" in this pot?

[mk]

Why are we trying to be "aggressive" in this pot?

because you're very short chips? you should absolutely do everything possible to try to double at the risk of going broke in this spot.