2 replies to this topic

[Monkeyman]

I've been playing online HE (mostly limit ring games, some SnGs and tourneys both limit and NL) for about a year and a half now, and have been reasonably successful (very slow but steady gains). I have read Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold'Em four or five times (and I know that some love it and some would burn it -- I use it as a starting point for loose low limit games) and just finished Sklansky and Malmuth's Hold'Em for Advanced Players. I'm going to get a license for Poker Tracker soon, but am working on finding and plugging leaks in my game on my own in the meantime. Here are a few key hands that I have played in the last week or two, along with my assessments of them -- I'm looking for confirmation or denial of my assessments, advice on other factors I should be considering, and of course, general advice on the play of these hands. :-)-----#1: Just last night at $1/$2 Limit at PokerRoom. The table is much looser than most at that level, with about 40%-50% seeing the flop on any given hand. I'm getting ready to quit for the night and get 8 7 in UTG+1. I haven't had a hand in some time and I'm itching to play one more before bed (yes, I was tilting just a tiny bit) and also working on some advice from Sklansky and Malmuth on mixing up my play a bit so opponents who pay attention don't get to read me like a book. I decide to limp it, hoping for enough callers to give me decent pot odds for a draw on the flop. (UTG had already limped, giving me hope.) Just my luck, the player to my left raises. Astonishingly, five (might even have been six) players call, including both blinds and UTG. (I don't think seven or eight people have seen any flop all night, and definitely not behind an early raise like that.)The flop comes J 6 5 , giving me six clean outs to the nuts and another two to non-nut straights. Blinds and UTG check, and I check as well, knowing that the player to my left is very aggressive when he gets it in his head to raise pre-flop (he doesn't do it often, but when he does he follows it aggressively). True to form, he bets out, and even more surprising (or maybe not, considering the size of the pot already), it gets called all the way around (or maybe one player folded). Knowing that I'm about 3.15 to 1 to get the nuts by the river (although I don't know how to calculate the odds on my making my straight and the other card to come giving someone else a flush, higher straight, or better), I raise for value. Unsurprisingly, the pre-flop raiser re-raises behind me, but still gets four or five callers. I go ahead and cap, both for pot value and for intimidation. Everyone calls.Turn is a deuce, either or (don't recall which, didn't matter anyway). I check, aggressive guy bets, three or four players call, and I call this time -- I figure I don't have the drawing odds anymore to bet it for value and I don't want to get re-raised.River is a blank, and I check and fold. 4 3 in MP wins it after checking the nuts on the turn (an odd choice, maybe he was hoping I would be check-raising again and hoping to get more money in the pot that way).My analysis: maybe this was a loose call pre-flop -- is this the kind of thing I should limp occasionally to mix up my play and keep opponents guessing, or should I be doing that with stronger hands? Given the nature of the game, does it make sense to limp a drawing hand like that from UTG+1? I'm pretty comfortable in the way I played it on the flop and turn -- any suggestions there?-----#2: NL tourney. I'm in MP, get dealt AA. I have a medium-sized stack -- 25-50 big blinds, but not close to the biggest stack at the table. We're a long way from the bubble. Three or four players limp in front of me, and I raise it up to four times the big blind. I get one or two callers (don't recall) and the flop comes 532 rainbow. EP player who has me covered bets out something like a quarter of the pot, I raise about four times that much, anyone else who might have still been in folds, and he re-raises (minium re-raise, I think). I go all-in, he calls, he shows his 33, I don't catch any of my six outs, and my tournament is over.My analysis: Considering how many limpers there already were, I needed a much bigger raise pre-flop to protect my hand -- something on the order of ten big blinds might have been right, although I should also have considered going all-in and living with the chance that I would only pick up the money already in the pot. Once the flop landed, my six outs to improve were not nearly good enough to play so aggressively (while I was almost certainly not against a made straight, a set was very possible -- obviously) and I should have called down the flop bet and seen what happened on the turn and depending on how betting went there, maybe the river as well. "Going all-in on the flop with less than a set is almost almost always a mistake" -- good rule to live by, or am I being too hard on myself?-----#3: Another NL tourney. Again, far from the bubble -- 20 seats to a tourney where 20 seats get to go to real tourneys with actual MONEY, and about 360 players left from a starting field of about 1100. I've just been moved to a new table, have an average stack of 4200 at the table and no reads on anyone. Blinds are 75/150, and in the big blind I get dealt A K . Everyone folds to the CO who goes all-in for 3500 or so. I'm planning to call him, but then the button (who has about 10000) calls. Small blind folds, and I call anyway. The flop is all rags, I check, button checks. Turn is another rag, I check, button bets the minimum (300) into a dry side pot. I call, river is another blank, I check and call another 300 bet from the button, hoping that he is also playing overcards (hence the minimum bets) and I might have him beat or at least tied. Button shows 77 (just the pair, no set) and I spend about another ten minutes on life support before busting out.My analysis: Should have folded pre-flop. AKs is, as I understand it, great heads-up material, but much weaker against two opponents. There's a good chance I'm on the bad side of a 54/46 play heads-up, but against two opponents I could be racing to split the pot, severely dominated by AA or KK, or even just playing on reduced odds against another A or K against a lower pocket pair (which I think was probably the case). Coupled with the fact that the button had me covered and then some, this is a bad proposition all around. If we had been on the bubble, this would have been a fold even if the button had folded, since it's too big a gamble leaving me with too few chips even when I have the CO covered. Assuming that I DID play this (as I did) and get the flop I got, I should have check-folded to the bet on the turn, since my drawing odds were looking pretty poor at that point. (If I did and the CO won with a hand I could have beat, I could then berate the button for bluffing at a dry pot -- a concept I learned about on this forum just last week. :-) )-----#4 (last one!): Home game, $5 buy-in. This is a pretty friendly game, but there is one player out today who I have played (and beat) before who plays a lot of NL tourneys at the local casino. He's fairly solid, and had a little trouble adjusting to our very loose home game, but is starting to get the best of us. The blind structure and stacks are a style I have never played before -- it's the same as the local casino, with a starting stack of 500 chips per player, blinds increasing every 15 minutes and going 25/25, 25/50, 50/100. Rebuys are unlimited for the first half hour, and cost half the initial buy-in; add-ons are also available, 500 chips for half the original buy-in, and only available to people with less than 1001 in front of them. We've just started the third level of blinds, so rebuys and add-ons are done. I've earned my way up 1625 on my original buy-in; everyone else has rebought and added on to put them between 1000 and 1500. We're seven-handed (started that way -- more of a SnG than a tourney, if you think that way), blinds at 50/100, and I get A8o in the big blind. The first two players fold, and then our "expert" raises to 200. Player to his left (semi-loose/passive) calls, button and SB fold, and I call.Flop comes ATX rainbow. X is less than 8. I check, planning to check-raise, expert bets 200, slp calls, I raise to 500. Expert calls, slp folds. I'm putting the expert on an ace, probably with a better kicker, but it's really just a shot in the dark at that point. Turn is a queen, suited with something else on the board. I check, expert goes all-in. Calling and losing would leave me with basically nothing, calling and winning put me against a field of generally inexperienced players with about 30% of the chips in play. Top two spots pay out. I think for a long time, then call, hoping he either has a nut flush draw or an ace with a weaker kicker or queen, and dreading ace queen. He shows KJo (never crossed my mind), I'm drawing dead to a made straight. I bust out not long after and shuffle cards for the rest of the tourney.Analysis: Hindsight tells me that he would have raised bigger pre-flop with an ace and strong kicker. With 650 in the pot and him knowing I'm probably the second-best player there, his bet of only 200 on the flop should have smelled fishy to me. When it came back to me, with 1050 in the pot, I should have either gone all-in (taking away pot odds on draws) or folded if I really believed in the ace with better kicker. Definitely should have folded to the all-in on the turn -- he's generally not the type to bluff, so the only real possibilities here are all hands that have me beat, many with me drawing dead.-----If you read this far, give yourself ten points -- that was longer than even I thought it would be, and I may have added too much extraneous detail. I'm looking forward to any advice that can help me improve my game. If you agree with all of my analyses, I could use advice on ways to make myself stop and THINK of these issues when they're relevant instead of going all-in on a knee-jerk reaction. If, on the other hand, you think my all-ins were worthwhile risks to take in order to have a shot at winning a tourney, tell me that too -- it would be great to know I'm actually doing the right thing when I get destroyed.

[Vade]

Monkeyman said:

I've been playing online HE (mostly limit ring games, some SnGs and tourneys both limit and NL) for about a year and a half now, and have been reasonably successful (very slow but steady gains).  I have read Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold'Em four or five times (and I know that some love it and some would burn it -- I use it as a starting point for loose low limit games) and just finished Sklansky and Malmuth's Hold'Em for Advanced Players.  I'm going to get a license for Poker Tracker soon, but am working on finding and plugging leaks in my game on my own in the meantime.  Here are a few key hands that I have played in the last week or two, along with my assessments of them -- I'm looking for confirmation or denial of my assessments, advice on other factors I should be considering, and of course, general advice on the play of these hands. :-)-----#1: Just last night at $1/$2 Limit at PokerRoom.  The table is much looser than most at that level, with about 40%-50% seeing the flop on any given hand.  I'm getting ready to quit for the night and get 8 7 in UTG+1.  I haven't had a hand in some time and I'm itching to play one more before bed (yes, I was tilting just a tiny bit) and also working on some advice from Sklansky and Malmuth on mixing up my play a bit so opponents who pay attention don't get to read me like a book.  I decide to limp it, hoping for enough callers to give me decent pot odds for a draw on the flop.  (UTG had already limped, giving me hope.)  Just my luck, the player to my left raises.  Astonishingly, five (might even have been six) players call, including both blinds and UTG.  (I don't think seven or eight people have seen any flop all night, and definitely not behind an early raise like that.)The flop comes J 6 5 , giving me six clean outs to the nuts and another two to non-nut straights.  Blinds and UTG check, and I check as well, knowing that the player to my left is very aggressive when he gets it in his head to raise pre-flop (he doesn't do it often, but when he does he follows it aggressively).  True to form, he bets out, and even more surprising (or maybe not, considering the size of the pot already), it gets called all the way around (or maybe one player folded).  Knowing that I'm about 3.15 to 1 to get the nuts by the river (although I don't know how to calculate the odds on my making my straight and the other card to come giving someone else a flush, higher straight, or better), I raise for value.  Unsurprisingly, the pre-flop raiser re-raises behind me, but still gets four or five callers.  I go ahead and cap, both for pot value and for intimidation.  Everyone calls.Turn is a deuce, either   or    (don't recall which, didn't matter anyway).  I check, aggressive guy bets, three or four players call, and I call this time -- I figure I don't have the drawing odds anymore to bet it for value and I don't want to get re-raised.River is a blank, and I check and fold.  4 3 in MP wins it after checking the nuts on the turn (an odd choice, maybe he was hoping I would be check-raising again and hoping to get more money in the pot that way).My analysis: maybe this was a loose call pre-flop -- is this the kind of thing I should limp occasionally to mix up my play and keep opponents guessing, or should I be doing that with stronger hands?  Given the nature of the game, does it make sense to limp a drawing hand like that from UTG+1?  I'm pretty comfortable in the way I played it on the flop and turn -- any suggestions there?Ugh suited connectors suck badly in early position.  There's no value to them at all.  I also don't like to be the first one in the pot with them, even in a good position.-----#2: NL tourney.  I'm in MP, get dealt AA.  I have a medium-sized stack -- 25-50 big blinds, but not close to the biggest stack at the table.  We're a long way from the bubble.  Three or four players limp in front of me, and I raise it up to four times the big blind.  I get one or two callers (don't recall) and the flop comes 532 rainbow.  EP player who has me covered bets out something like a quarter of the pot, I raise about four times that much, anyone else who might have still been in folds, and he re-raises (minium re-raise, I think).  I go all-in, he calls, he shows his 33, I don't catch any of my six outs, and my tournament is over.My analysis: Considering how many limpers there already were, I needed a much bigger raise pre-flop to protect my hand -- something on the order of ten big blinds might have been right, although I should also have considered going all-in and living with the chance that I would only pick up the money already in the pot.  Once the flop landed, my six outs to improve were not nearly good enough to play so aggressively (while I was almost certainly not against a made straight, a set was very possible -- obviously) and I should have called down the flop bet and seen what happened on the turn and depending on how betting went there, maybe the river as well.  "Going all-in on the flop with less than a set is almost almost always a mistake" -- good rule to live by, or am I being too hard on myself?Yup, when there are limpers...with AA or KK you should make it 8-10x the BB.   After the flop, unfortunately you got beat by a hand that wasn't going anywhere.  He knew you had AA if he didn't before based on the size of your raise.  However, I'd have probably raised too, although that is a VERY small raise.-----#3: Another NL tourney.  Again, far from the bubble -- 20 seats to a tourney where 20 seats get to go to real tourneys with actual MONEY, and about 360 players left from a starting field of about 1100.  I've just been moved to a new table, have an average stack of 4200 at the table and no reads on anyone.  Blinds are 75/150, and in the big blind I get dealt A K .  Everyone folds to the CO who goes all-in for 3500 or so.  I'm planning to call him, but then the button (who has about 10000) calls.  Small blind folds, and I call anyway.  The flop is all rags, I check, button checks.  Turn is another rag, I check, button bets the minimum (300) into a dry side pot.  I call, river is another blank, I check and call another 300 bet from the button, hoping that he is also playing overcards (hence the minimum bets) and I might have him beat or at least tied.  Button shows 77 (just the pair, no set) and I spend about another ten minutes on life support before busting out.My analysis: Should have folded pre-flop.  AKs is, as I understand it, great heads-up material, but much weaker against two opponents.  There's a good chance I'm on the bad side of a 54/46 play heads-up, but against two opponents I could be racing to split the pot, severely dominated by AA or KK, or even just playing on reduced odds against another A or K against a lower pocket pair (which I think was probably the case).  Coupled with the fact that the button had me covered and then some, this is a bad proposition all around.  If we had been on the bubble, this would have been a fold even if the button had folded, since it's too big a gamble leaving me with too few chips even when I have the CO covered.  Assuming that I DID play this (as I did) and get the flop I got, I should have check-folded to the bet on the turn, since my drawing odds were looking pretty poor at that point.  (If I did and the CO won with a hand I could have beat, I could then berate the button for bluffing at a dry pot -- a concept I learned about on this forum just last week. :-) )Instant fold.  AKs is crap agianst a person who goes all in for nothing in the pot.  I've learned recently that people love doing this with high pocket pairs, daring an inferior hand to call.-----#4 (last one!):  Home game, $5 buy-in.  This is a pretty friendly game, but there is one player out today who I have played (and beat) before who plays a lot of NL tourneys at the local casino.  He's fairly solid, and had a little trouble adjusting to our very loose home game, but is starting to get the best of us.  The blind structure and stacks are a style I have never played before -- it's the same as the local casino, with a starting stack of 500 chips per player, blinds increasing every 15 minutes and going 25/25, 25/50, 50/100.  Rebuys are unlimited for the first half hour, and cost half the initial buy-in; add-ons are also available, 500 chips for half the original buy-in, and only available to people with less than 1001 in front of them.  We've just started the third level of blinds, so rebuys and add-ons are done.  I've earned my way up 1625 on my original buy-in; everyone else has rebought and added on to put them between 1000 and 1500.  We're seven-handed (started that way -- more of a SnG than a tourney, if you think that way), blinds at 50/100, and I get A8o in the big blind.  The first two players fold, and then our "expert" raises to 200.  Player to his left (semi-loose/passive) calls, button and SB fold, and I call.Flop comes ATX rainbow.  X is less than 8.  I check, planning to check-raise, expert bets 200, slp calls, I raise to 500.  Expert calls, slp folds.  I'm putting the expert on an ace, probably with a better kicker, but it's really just a shot in the dark at that point.  Turn is a queen, suited with something else on the board.  I check, expert goes all-in.  Calling and losing would leave me with basically nothing, calling and winning put me against a field of generally inexperienced players with about 30% of the chips in play.  Top two spots pay out.  I think for a long time, then call, hoping he either has a nut flush draw or an ace with a weaker kicker or queen, and dreading ace queen.  He shows KJo (never crossed my mind), I'm drawing dead to a made straight.  I bust out not long after and shuffle cards for the rest of the tourney.Analysis: Hindsight tells me that he would have raised bigger pre-flop with an ace and strong kicker.  With 650 in the pot and him knowing I'm probably the second-best player there, his bet of only 200 on the flop should have smelled fishy to me.  When it came back to me, with 1050 in the pot, I should have either gone all-in (taking away pot odds on draws) or folded if I really believed in the ace with better kicker.  Definitely should have folded to the all-in on the turn -- he's generally not the type to bluff, so the only real possibilities here are all hands that have me beat, many with me drawing dead.A-Xo sucks.  Period.  Exclamation point.  Colon.  Whatever other punctuation you want to put on it.  The problem that many (including me) used to think, is A-Xo is a hand i want to have against a maniac.  Well, no because maniacs are entitled to hands sometimes too.-----If you read this far, give yourself ten points -- that was longer than even I thought it would be, and I may have added too much extraneous detail.  I'm looking forward to any advice that can help me improve my game.  If you agree with all of my analyses, I could use advice on ways to make myself stop and THINK of these issues when they're relevant instead of going all-in on a knee-jerk reaction.  If, on the other hand, you think my all-ins were worthwhile risks to take in order to have a shot at winning a tourney, tell me that too -- it would be great to know I'm actually doing the right thing when I get destroyed.

Where's my 10 points? :POh, and I wish I always followed my own advice in tournaments, but I don't, and I pay for it.

[Monkeyman]

Ugh suited connectors suck badly in early position. There's no value to them at all. I also don't like to be the first one in the pot with them, even in a good position.Note that I wasn't the first in the pot -- UTG had already limped. I was looking through HEfAP last night to see what Sklansky and Malmuth would say about this, and found that 87s is a group 5 hand and they suggest playing group 5 hands (especially the suited connectors) from EP in a loose game (which this was). I do agree, though, that if I was in a good position and the first one in, I'd be less inclined to play it -- loose games don't really count for much if all the "loose" players are folding this hand for a change. :-)Any thoughts on the post-flop play?-----Yup, when there are limpers...with AA or KK you should make it 8-10x the BB. After the flop, unfortunately you got beat by a hand that wasn't going anywhere. He knew you had AA if he didn't before based on the size of your raise. However, I'd have probably raised too, although that is a VERY small raise.Good notes, thanks. I should see if I can dig up the actual hand history (might not be possible, as the tourney was technically a freeroll) and confirm my stack size and post-flop bet and raise amounts -- I'd love to get some specific advice based on those details.-----Instant fold. AKs is crap agianst a person who goes all in for nothing in the pot. I've learned recently that people love doing this with high pocket pairs, daring an inferior hand to call.Very good point. I was thinking that the chance of almost doubling up would be worth the risk, but when I have no read on the player and I could very well be severely dominated by AA or KK (or even drawing weak against QQ, JJ, or TT), I guess this is the way I should look at it -- especially since losing would put me on life support even without the post-flop betting from the button. As it turns out, I learned that the CO couldn't beat 77 at the end, which tells me he was playing on high cards or a low pair, but that's only useful information for the next time I see him in a tourney. :-)-----A-Xo sucks. Period. Exclamation point. Colon. Whatever other punctuation you want to put on it. The problem that many (including me) used to think, is A-Xo is a hand i want to have against a maniac. Well, no because maniacs are entitled to hands sometimes too.I completely agree with this as a general rule (I would generally complete with any ace from the small blind, but throw away AXo under any other circumstances), but I have some more questions about this subject in the context of this particular home game.Because of the very slow dealing in this game, we get about 30 hands per hour dealt. With blinds increasing every fifteen minutes and seven players in the game, this means that on average, you get hit by the blinds once at each level. This means that starting from 1625 chips at 50/100 blinds, I will be paying 150, 225, 300, 450, and 600 for blinds as they come to me -- at which point I will have blinded out. Stealing blinds is very difficult, as the game is very loose (there are almost always a couple of limpers, part of why the game goes so slowly), so it is safe to assume that if I don't voluntarily put money into the pot, I have at best about 35 hands coming to me in which to make something happen before I blind out. If I wait until the end of those 35 hands, my stack is almost too small compared to others to be able to do anything useful anyway. Of course, people will be busting out in this time, but this just means the blinds come around more often, which I think hurts more than it helps in the long run.While I don't really care for this type of blind structure (I think it should start much lower so I can get some decent hands and build a stack BEFORE the blinds become threatening), I like to play it as a challenge. The game has a very strong feel of having to "make your own luck" -- unless you catch a monster hand and get paid off with it, you don't stand much of a chance. (This also contributes to a lot of limping -- people playing any paint or suited cards or unsuited connectors and hoping to flop big.)With that for context, what sorts of changes do I need to be making to my starting hand requirements? Is the game too much of a crapshoot to even play with any measure of skill? I generally play much more loosely and aggressively than normal, which has a fair measure of success (although I have bad judgement on calling all-ins -- I'm better off to be the one pushing, as is normally true) but I wonder if there's a better way to play when I expect to only have 35 hands or so to make something happen. Any thoughts?-----Where's my 10 points? :POh, and I wish I always followed my own advice in tournaments, but I don't, and I pay for it.I actually don't know where to find these points. I hand them out, but don't know where they go.I know what you mean about following your own advice -- for most situations in limit ring games, I know what I should be doing, but I don't always do it, and I think that's what limits me to being a profitable player instead of an extremely profitable player. I'm hoping it continues to improve with self-analysis and increased discipline.Another thought -- reading some other threads I see advice on posting proper hand histories when possible and not posting results. I'll have to work on both of these things for next time.Thanks for your comments, Vade.