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a case for christ


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#41 Dlink

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 10:25 AM

First off, how did the exam go? And what are you studying? It was a pleasure having an intelligent disscussion concerning this without it sinking to a personal level.I'd also like to add that despite great differences in how we come to the conclusion there are many areas where we fundementally agree (if for different reasons) - we both agree that a higher power exists; we both agree that anything touched by man has the potential to go wrong and; ultimately, we both want peoples beliefs to lead to values that benefit them and their fellow man.

drocpdp said:

I think i'm about done in this post. DLink, your views are definitely interesting. However, the only thing left after what we've both said is to convince each other of our opposing views. I don't think I'll be able to convince you of my opinion, and vice versa. And honestly, we're not harming each other, only our fingers when we type.. hahaha. Our views are somewhat conflicting, but nonetheless, unharmful to each other, and even enlightening to some extent.This debate was great though. There were no cheap shots, or excessive preaching. I think we've both shared educated viewpoints and arguments. See you elsewhere on the forum. Take it easy.


#42 Longshanks

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 12:14 AM

it is all faith, anyone trying to mathematically prove the existance of God is wasting their time, he is much smarter than anyone on this earth weather they want to admit it or not

#43 Dlink

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 12:37 AM

I think you are missing the point. It's not about mathematically proving anything. It is about being able to think in a reductionist manner to explain why you believe what you do. Some people can work backwards to the point of 'God exists by virtue of my consciousness'; some have pantheistic believes, and some say 'I have faith beccause my parents told me, and why would they lie?" Okay those examples are a little extreme but the illustration is sound. Why do you believe, why do you have faith?Also you say he is much smarter than anyone on earth. Let us for a second presume he is a single entity and not some form of universal consciousness. Let us prsume that for whatever reason he is preoccupied with us on this rock. He is infinitely smart and good and powerful and pure etc. etc. etc. Why do you presume he wishes to hide his existence from us? Your tone is hostile and the only conclusions that can be drawn into your statements is that your God wishes to decieve us about his existence -- your God is deceptive.

Longshanks said:

it is all faith, anyone trying to mathematically prove the existance of God is wasting their time, he is much smarter than anyone on this earth weather they want to admit it or not


#44 Mattnxtc

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 07:09 AM

Why do you presume he wishes to hide his existence from us? Who has said he is hiding his existance from us? I tend to see the miracles that have happened and this world it self as being a way he is showing us. Now if you dont believe in Christ then this isnt going to help but for those who do, we know that man was givin several chances to see God. Yet even when Jesus proclaimed that Heaven was near..what did they do? they crucified him. I am sorry but I just dont have a strong enough faith that everything in this universe was created by random chance.

#45 kaisersoze12

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Posted 08 April 2005 - 12:33 PM

Hi all,Seems like many of you want to pull emotions out of the thought process and come to a logical consluion of the existance of God, Christ, Hell, Satan, Heaven, etc.The book that takes a complete logical "based on what we concluded from the last chapter ..." approach, try CS Lewis' book Mere Christianity.

#46 UglyJimStudly

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 01:19 PM

faketree said:

Without going into detail just yet, after reading the first two chapters, I get a sense that this book wasn't at all written by a skeptic or an athiest. This comes across more as someone who has already made his decision and it is clearly biased towards that decision. It even says at one point that he is retracing his steps.
He is; Strobel wrote the book something like 10 or 15 years after he became an evangelical Christian. The book is a conversion tool, not an objective examination of the subject.

#47 Balloon guy

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:01 PM

Dlink, I remember hearing a debate between Madaline O'Hare sp?( founder atheist church) and Walter Martin ( Christian ) about Christianity and she brought up the history of Chistianity is bloody. Martin's response was that they researched the numbers based on known populations of the world and the total number of killed due to Christian atrocities is about 5 million.In the first 50 years of Communism the total number killed is around 300 million.Walter Martin was the founder of the Christian Research Institute, had 3 earned PHDs in Philosophy, Comparative Religions, and Phsychology ( I think) so he's not some kook pulling numbers out of the sky.Sorry, but the generalization of Christian atrocities is a poor basis for conclusions. And the holocaust was not a Christian event, it was an athiest's event. Hitler taught evolutionary causes led to a superior Aryan race. Bible teaches Jews are God's chosen people.I do like reading people that have thought out arguements on religions. I use to argue all the time the evolution vs. Creation debate but have been away from the internet for awhile. I also get turned off really quick to name calling and shallowstabs, so your response is welcome.
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#48 Balloon guy

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:17 PM

Dlink, I also read Holy Blood Holy Grail long before DaVicniCode came out and that is a book of half truths and suppositions if there ever was one. If this and if that then this and that could mean the other thing. Which leads us to believe that maybe this could be this and that means this could be true.The person who gave it to me and I smoked 3 cigars and argued till 3am about this book, so I feel fairly confident that Da Vinci code is just a laymens atepmt at proving what HB/HG failied to do IMO.As far as MP & the Holy Grail I stood in line for 1/2 hour to get John Cleese to sign a DVD of this movie to me. This is one of my most charised non religious possessions. Glad to see you have taste in Movies.I always liked the joke about Zoroaster when some famous Zoroasterian was at a dinner party making fun of the Christians in middle ages in Prussia or something, and he stated " I would sell my seat in heaven for a Prussian dollar" To this a young man replied" In Prussia we have a law that states you must own something in order to sell it. Are you now ready to prove you even own a seat in heaven?"
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#49 BigDMcGee

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 01:07 AM

I got the book, as asked for, and I haven't had the chance to read it yet. I admit I am skepitcal, but hey, I'll give it a shot. I'm a sucker for a jellyroll. Thanks again
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#50 Alhazred

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 03:18 PM

MilesZS said:

Plato's stories about Socrates were easy to read, and the Socratic method is by far the best way to bring someone else to the conclusion you think they should come to.
LOL, well, the socratic method isn't exactly the best method for bringing a person to the conclusion you want them to come to--that method would probably be "mind control." The socratic method is just a great way to get people to examine their own beliefs. However, I think what you meant is that it's a great way to tend towards the truth of a certain proposition--perhaps you substituted "the conclusion you think they should come to" for "truth" ;)

#51 Alhazred

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 07:04 PM

drocpdp said:

Because supposedly, heaven is nothing like this. . .  But back to tragedies and stuff. I think the destruction we see constantly is a reminder that in heaven, none of that sadness will exist. In fact, our entire existence (seems pesimistic, i know) is sadness UNTIL we meet our heavenly father. (sorry to upset you atheists)(My dialect is getting a bit preachy i know). I know this sounds perverted, but the sheer magnitude and the veil of ominous incomprehensible tragedy of 9/11 should be a blessing in disguise. A reminder that NONE OF THIS exists in heaven
See, to me, heaven sounds like a total bore. Oh yay, total happiness and unending bliss, or whatnot. Where's the tragedy? Where's the ups and downs that make life worth living? Where's the reward that comes after hard-fought endeavors? Eternity is a long time to be at an emotional peak.I tell you what: heaven better have poker, and Jesus better not be reading my mind when I push in.

drocpdp said:

I HATE KOREANS b/c they're all christ this and christ that and then they're sleeping with like 32423423432432 people.  
I'll leave this alone . . . eek.

#52 Paz

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Posted 11 May 2005 - 09:55 PM

Balloon guy said:

Sorry, but the generalization of  Christian atrocities is a poor basis for conclusions. And the holocaust was not a Christian event, it was an athiest's event.
It is false to assume that the atrocities of the past occured because of christianity considering that back then most of the civilized western world was christian. Also, Hitler was catholic, not atheist.You should look at many of Hitler's famous speeches and quotes.http://www.thatchert...g/tthitcomp.htmOf course, Hitler's rampage is not a testament to the catholic faith anymore than O.J. Simpson is an archetype of a football player's psyche. Just like Stalin, Pol Pot, or Caligula he was just a sick man.

#53 Scanner313

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Posted 13 May 2005 - 11:34 AM

Mattnxtc said:

I am sorry but I just dont have a strong enough faith that everything in this universe was created by random chance.
I wasn't going to add anything to this conversation but this coment got me interested.With all due respect, your comment implies that because of the complex nature of the universe (as a whole) that it couldn't have developed naturally. Here's my question... If not understanding the scope of the universe sways you away from evoultion, the big bang, etc., is there some evidence that draws you TO religion? Or is it just the easier explanation?I'm just wondering because I've always believed that people adopted religion because of this lack of knowlege of the things that surrounded them. Not being able to find their place amidst so much confusion led them to the one answer that could explain it all the easiest, that being religion. I mean, think about it. Kids dont' understand most of what we, as adults, do understand, so it's easy to convince them of anything (i.e. Santa Claus, monsters in the closet, hair will grow on their palm if they.. well, you know). Well, even many adults today don't have the mental capacity to understand a lot of things. Even the most brilliant scientists cant' explain most of what's going on out there, but they've made great strides in figuring out tons of them (i.e. mathmatics, physics, even the discovery of electricity). But look at the poeple who did figure these things out. They were geniuses! There aren't that many out there, and I'm sure that there are plenty of natural phenomena in the universe that even the smartest humans can never comprehend. But that doesn't mean it's not natural.My point is that I think most people still believe in religion for 2 reasons:1) It absolves us, as the most highly intellectual species on this planet, of having to figure out why we're here, where we came from, etc. Religion offers all of this to us in a nice package that was very well crafted for something that arose 2000 years ago (well, Christianity anyway).2) Most people have been raised, from the time they were able to comprehend speach, to believe in religion. It offered them a sense of community and family that isn't easy to give up. I should know, I was born, baptised, and raised Catholic. I finally made the decision to completley abandon my faith when I was about 27. It was tough. I was leaving something that offered comfort, but I just couldn't accept it anymore. It made no sense to me and I decided that religion wasn't something I could believe in anymore. I don't go spreading it around because I know it would upset members of my family, and I don't want that. They don't have to know, and I'm certainly not going to try to pursuade them that they are wrong, as I wouldn't with anyone else.Anyway, I'm rambling here. I was just curious as to your position based on your statement.

#54 LukesMom

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Posted 13 May 2005 - 04:57 PM

I'm curious to know what the reactions are of those who have finished this book?I've just started reading it...

#55 Balloon guy

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 11:50 AM

Paz said:

Balloon guy said:

Sorry, but the generalization of Christian atrocities is a poor basis for conclusions. And the holocaust was not a Christian event, it was an athiest's event.
It is false to assume that the atrocities of the past occured because of christianity considering that back then most of the civilized western world was christian. Also, Hitler was catholic, not atheist.You should look at many of Hitler's famous speeches and quotes.http://www.thatchert...g/tthitcomp.htmOf course, Hitler's rampage is not a testament to the catholic faith anymore than O.J. Simpson is an archetype of a football player's psyche. Just like Stalin, Pol Pot, or Caligula he was just a sick man.
Hitler may have claimed catholism, quoted it and used it when it fit, but the basic tenet that the master race/Superman theory brought about because of evolution is much more an athiest view than any other world view. That was my only point. Too many make the lazy connection and group Hitler with Christianity because of his words. Maybe I am doing the same thing by lumping an evil man with a belief that isn't evil....just wrong IMHO.
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#56 Paz

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 08:27 AM

Balloon guy said:

Hitler may have claimed catholism, quoted it and used it when it fit, but the basic tenet that the master race/Superman theory brought about because of evolution is much more an athiest view than any other world view.
Evolution has nothing to do with a "master race." He inferred that from this theory to give weight to his grandiose, but twisted ambitions.

#57 Balloon guy

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Posted 19 May 2005 - 06:16 AM

Paz said:

Balloon guy said:

Hitler may have claimed catholism, quoted it and used it when it fit, but the basic tenet that the master race/Superman theory brought about because of evolution is much more an athiest view than any other world view.
Evolution has nothing to do with a "master race." He inferred that from this theory to give weight to his grandiose, but twisted ambitions.
Evolution is based on the evolving upward of a species. How does this not fit with the Master Race theory?I don't believe in evolution, so I see the flaw, evolutionist argue that man is getting better, therfore some men are better than others.How many evolutionist does it take to screw in a lightbulb?None, eventually it will screw itself in.
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Most bad government has come out of too much government. Thomas Jefferson

#58 Paz

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Posted 21 May 2005 - 10:53 PM

Balloon guy said:

Evolution is based on the evolving upward of a species. How does this not fit with the Master Race theory?I don't believe in evolution, so I see the flaw, evolutionist argue that man is getting better, therfore some men are better than others.
I've noticed that those who reject evolution are typically those that don't know what it is or have some strawman definition of it, which included Hitler.Evolution is NOT about progress. Those organisms that proliferate are not those that are advanced or more complex, rather it is those that are better suited to survive in their biological niche. A tapeworm or bacterium is just as fit as a deer or lion.Being the case or not, this does not mean that we must perform eugenics or genocide. This is why modern culture has a standard of ethics.Just because something happens naturally doesn't mean that it is moral in any sort of analogical sense. I think even DN can vouch for that, being a vegetarian.

#59 UglyJimStudly

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 05:18 PM

Balloon guy said:

Evolution is based on the evolving upward of a species.
No, it's not. It's a change in the gene pool of a population over time. If you're interested in more, there's a good synopsis here:http://www.talkorigi...to-biology.html

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How does this not fit with the Master Race theory?
Not sure what you mean by "Master Race theory", but all bigots start with the conclusion and work backwards to justify it; they will twist and misuse evolution, history, the bible, or whatever else to their ends. That they do this does not mean that evolution, history, or the bible are responsible for their bigotry. Claiming that evolution is bad because bigots twist it to support their position is about as useful as claiming that the bible is bad because bigots twist biblical passages to support their position, which is to say not useful at all.
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#60 blinky

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Posted 25 May 2005 - 02:06 PM

Its interesting that its somewhat of a basic human urge to project their views onto other. Dont you guys think that if someone was truly confident in their faith, they wouldnt feel the need to have others discover and subscribe to their same belief system. Personally i view religion as kind of an interesting phenomenon among humans, but i dont think its really neccessary for each and every person. Mainly religion is used to quell fears and uncertainties, and in the current world we live in (first world america, canada europe) we really lead good enough lives that we can live fine without resorting to religion to comfort ourselves.That being said i respect people who subscribe to religious views, but understand that thats not for everyone, and shouldnt be imposed on everyone.




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