Turn Check 2

[aim786 0]

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, T. 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.Flop: (4.50 SB) 6, 8, A(2 players)BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.Turn: (3.25 BB) J(2 players)BB checks, Hero checks...

[Zach6668 513]

This one is a lot better than the other turn check.We don't really have anything here to fall back on if we are called. Ie, we have no showdown value, yet.Checking here is great, IMO, unless you've seen the BB fold a TON of turns after calling the flop light. This probably isn't a good place to try and find out though.

[screech 0]

YES!What do you plan to do on a Q/T river?

[Actuary 3]

I like a bet here.You have 6+ outs to the best hand.He could be on a hear draw, but I bet you have between 9 and 14 outs a ton, + the best hand sometimes.Because you have less SD value, bet. (not the other way around, right Zach?)If he calls, and leads river, you can fold. With SD value, you can sometimes check here and induce bluffs.

[Zach6668 513]

I like a bet here.You have 6+ outs to the best hand.He could be on a hear draw, but I bet you have between 9 and 14 outs a ton, + the best hand sometimes.Because you have less SD value, bet. (not the other way around, right Zach?)If he calls, and leads river, you can fold. With SD value, you can sometimes check here and induce bluffs.

Na, I think this is a situation where checking behind is much better. If we bet, and he calls, then we check the river with Q high? Turn seems like a spew. If we check, we can fold the river UI, and if we catch a Q or a T, we can pick off a bluff. If we catch a straight, we can raise.Seriously, what is he calling the flop here for, if it isn't a flush draw, it's an Ace, or he's setting up a turn c/r with air.

[Actuary 3]

so you give Hero 0 fold equity on the turn?q high is never the best hand ?I'm not convinced.If you put villan on a FD a lot, then why fold the river if he leads out ?I'd fold river if villain calls turn and leads river, but not if we check turn.I"m rusty.

[Zach6668 513]

I don't think we can call any river with Q-high, no matter what we do.Also, I'm not sure he has a flush draw all that often. He could have any PP, any Ax, or a flush draw. Depends on his blind defending tendencies, I suppose, and his aggression in these.He seems to be playing it quite passively no matter what he has.I can see your argument for a bet on the turn, but I really think that we gain more by seeing the river for free, IMO.I dunno. screech agreed He should come help me back it up.- Zach

[Actuary 3]

I don't think we can call any river with Q-high, no matter what we do.

why not?If its a missed FD, we lose to K I don't think Ax lets us see a free river enough to put him on that enough to not call a river bet in a 4+BB pot if we check the turn.I want to bet turn to charge the drawsand 8x/6x that may fold now.ps: Screech is drunk a lot.

[Zach6668 513]

Paging screech.Actuary, don't make me try and do a proof here by doing math myself...

[Actuary 3]

I fear the turn check is over used at lower stakes due to the more tricky ( read: wait till turn ) players of higher SH tables. And that advice trickles down, like pee pee.

[screech 0]

I fear the turn check is over used at lower stakes due to the more tricky ( read: wait till turn ) players of higher SH tables. And that advice trickles down, like pee pee.

LOL.What do you think an average opponent is peeling wiht on an Ace high flop that he will fold on the turn?

[Actuary 3]

LOL.What do you think an average opponent is peeling wiht on an Ace high flop that he will fold on the turn?

firstly, i'm charging flush drawssecondly, 6x 8x may, or should fold. (I say "should" loosely, but from what I"ve seen in SH forum, I've lost all track of what is a showable hand)Also, I don't think we are getting c/r that often.

[screech 0]

firstly, i'm charging flush drawssecondly, 6x 8x may, or should fold. (I say "should" loosely, but from what I"ve seen in SH forum, I've lost all track of what is a showable hand)Also, I don't think we are getting c/r that often.

I hear ya. I just don't think any pair folds ever. Also, note that the Ah and Qh are accounted for, so there's no real reason to charge the flush draws. And if we do, does that mean we're betting the river UI (if we check, we may lose to Khxh)

[Actuary 3]

no of course, we are checking behind on river.sometimes its a weak ace or pair..the Kh losses will just happen.I know there was a link for this..but I like betting turns when it's close because I want to discourage loose flop peels.ok..so I have the last word.

[screech 0]

no of course, we are checking behind on river.sometimes its a weak ace or pair..the Kh losses will just happen.I know there was a link for this..but I like betting turns when it's close because I want to discourage loose flop peels.ok..so I have the last word.

Not so quick!Even very loose players will sometimes decide not to peel with something like J9 on a A86 board. Change the ace to 2, and I agree with you that we should bet the turn.

[Actuary 3]

. Change the ace to 2, and I agree with you that we should bet the turn.

well duh! :Pwe'd have 14 outs, likely.we may have 14 now.Perhaps, if opponent was known to be loose and bad and player micro SH, it would be an easier turn, bet.. oh wait...ok..we'll agree to disagree.. you are the man.

[aim786 0]

I'd just like to point out that the villain was defending his big blind. Alot of that range involves Ax.

[Actuary 3]

I'd just like to point out that the villain was defending his big blind. Alot of that range involves Ax.

I'd just like to point out that villain never raised the flop nor bet the turn with a fd on board and a good flop for Ax.

[Zach6668 513]

It's 3-1 for the checkers vs Actuary.

[GoingBusto 0]

I'm checking.I see where Actuary is coming from, but I think this pot is too small to be betting with Q high. I'm also calling any Q or J river and betting if checked to, folding otherwise.GBEdit: Make that Q or T river. Forgot what we had. You knew what I meant.

[Actuary 3]

It's 3-1 for the checkers vs Actuary.

majority wins?hmm.likely I think:he folds more than you thinkhe's on a FD more than you thinkhe will bet a missed FD on river and you will fold best hand too often, if you don't bet the turn (whereas if you do bet turn and check behind, he won't bluff river as often, and we can fold more assuredly)he won't c/r the turn as often as you think (he has an ace less then you think)we have 14 outs a lotwe have best hand more than you do.in total it adds up to betting now and not letting him bet us off the best hand on river. If I thought a c/r was more likely here, I'd agree.well...time to let this one go, sorry I don't have more time to teach!