Marginal Hand. River Raise.

[screech 0]

Villian is overaggressive and dumb. Stats are 37/7/3.Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)Button ($604.80)SB ($769.62)Hero ($706)UTG ($614)MP ($576.60)Preflop: Hero is BB with 7, Q. SB posts a blind of $3. 1 fold, MP calls $6, 1 fold, SB (poster) completes, Hero raises to $20, MP calls $20, SB folds.Flop: ($58) 2, 8, 7(2 players)Hero bets $35, MP calls $35.Turn: ($128) 9(2 players)Hero checks, MP checks.River: ($128) 3(2 players)Hero bets $60, MP raises to $170Final Pot: $468Looking back on this now, my river bet sucks balls. How easy is this river call/fold?

[No_Neck 0]

more 4-1 on the river this is rather tough. If you have seen him bluff the river I think you have to call. Maybe he checked behind on the turn with the straight and is trying to induce a bluff. The whole thing doesn't make any of sense to me.

[Scott3705 0]

Check preflop. That raise is way out of line.As played, bet the turn again I think. As played, maybe check/call the river.... depends. probably not tho.

[screech 0]

Check preflop. That raise is way out of line.

Read NLTAP?

As played, bet the turn again I think.

Why?

As played, maybe check/call the river.... depends. probably not tho.

I agree. Honestly, as soon as I bet, I was hoping he would raise.

[Scott3705 0]

Read NLTAP?

I have never read it. What would you be referring to specifically? Maybe if you quoted it or something the raise would make sense. "Read NLTAP" still makes it out of line for me. (maybe Ed Miller can change my mind)

Why?

To desuade the CFAB (call for a bluff) play or a semi bluff. or a small PP value bet (admittadly, not many of those left). Unless he's getting real tricky, you're worrying about an eight or a set here no?

I agree. Honestly, as soon as I bet, I was hoping he would raise.

Why?

[screech 0]

I have never read it. What would you be referring to specifically? Maybe if you quoted it or something the raise would make sense. "Read NLTAP" still makes it out of line for me. (maybe Ed Miller can change my mind)

Nah. He basically says what you say. He says you should reserve these squeeze plays for your terrible hands like 72o (it suggests you usually check/fold the flop if you get called). With hands that have potential, he says you usually make more money by seeing a flop.However, in stox's videos, he tends to do these squeeze plays with hands that have some value, like mine. Also, in NLTAP, it suggests that if theres a higher than average chance you may get called (as per the loose player), its better that you muck your weak hands, and pull the play with hands that have some value to fall back on, like mine. Honestly, I've foudn that in the 600nl game, this play works best with something to fall back on.

To desuade the CFAB (call for a bluff) play or a semi bluff. or a small PP value bet (admittadly, not many of those left). Unless he's getting real tricky, you're worrying about an eight or a set here no?

I dunno. I would rather let him take this down now, than to CFAB the flop, and pick up TP or a straight draw and call the turn when I would have to give up the river. Also, I don't think I'm usually ahead once he calls the flop.

Why?

Because when he checked the turn, I felt that I was probably ahead. Then I bet the river without giving any thought to it. As soon as I bet, I thought ****, theres no way he calls with a worse hand and I hsould have tried to at least induce a bluff. Then I realized he might view my river bet as a weak hand, and try to push me off it, so I was hoping he would raise so I could get value out of my hand. Obviously if he raised more, it would have made me a bit uncomfortable, but I was quite pleased he raised so little.

[Scott3705 0]

Also, I don't think I'm usually ahead once he calls the flop.Because when I checked the turn, I felt that I was probably ahead. Then I bet the river without giving any thought to it. As soon as I bet, I thought ****, theres no way he calls with a worse hand and I hsould have tried to at least induce a bluff. Then I realized he might view my river bet as a weak hand, and try to push me off it, so I was hoping he would raise so I could get value out of my hand. Obviously if he raised more, it would have made me a bit uncomfortable, but I was quite pleased he raised so little.

????

[screech 0]

????

Oops. I meant when he checks the turn.

[Scott3705 0]

I dunno. I would rather let him take this down now, than to CFAB the flop, and pick up TP or a straight draw and call the turn when I would have to give up the river. Also, I don't think I'm usually ahead once he calls the flop.Because when he checked the turn, I felt that I was probably ahead. Then I bet the river without giving any thought to it. As soon as I bet, I thought ****, theres no way he calls with a worse hand and I hsould have tried to at least induce a bluff. Then I realized he might view my river bet as a weak hand, and try to push me off it, so I was hoping he would raise so I could get value out of my hand. Obviously if he raised more, it would have made me a bit uncomfortable, but I was quite pleased he raised so little.

Seeing that this player is capable of pulling some Fancy river bluff like this, then I'd really rather keep firing at the turn w/ this hand a lot and try to make him more passive and transparent. Online 1/2, this usually isn't a bluff. Wake up River bluffs (even Shed) don't happen very often. i'd expect you to be behind here more often than not, but probably not enough (given your gut) to fold. what types of hands is he calling the flop w/ tho?

[screech 0]

what types of hands is he calling the flop w/ tho?

overs, gutshots, and pairs.

[Scott3705 0]

overs, gutshots, and pairs.

Then why not bet the turn?

[TeeSludge 0]

Hey guys, I assume NLTAP is a book... what is it called?

[screech 0]

Then why not bet the turn?

Because this player is very aggressive and I never really wanted to bet and fold to a raise. I would have rathered check/folded my marginal hand OOP, even if there was a decent chance it was best. I see what you're saying though, he would be hard pressed to put a move on me if I bet again. The thing is, a lot of his overcard/gutshot hands either picked up a top pair on the turn, made their striaght, or picked up a gutshot.I dunno if this is good enough reason to check though. I just tend to give up more times than not with hands like these OOP vs aggressive players. Is this a leak?

[Scott3705 0]

Because this player is very aggressive and I never really wanted to bet and fold to a raise. I would have rathered check/folded my marginal hand OOP, even if there was a decent chance it was best. I see what you're saying though, he would be hard pressed to put a move on me if I bet again. The thing is, a lot of his overcard/gutshot hands either picked up a top pair on the turn, made their striaght, or picked up a gutshot.I dunno if this is good enough reason to check though. I just tend to give up more times than not with hands like these OOP vs aggressive players. Is this a leak?

It doesn't have to be if you play 88 or AA similiar. If you aren't, then 1.reraising a very marginal hand out of the blind when u could have taken a free flop, and 2. then always shutting down if you get called and did not catch a good hand is a problem, especially in a Shed game. (I may be misunderstanding as I can see how a wide variety of hands that he may have are causing some concern on this particular board.) You're giving this opponent a legitimate reason to hit you with some fancy plays. Back to the hand tho... I'd still be very suprised if you're ahead here.

[screech 0]

It doesn't have to be if you play 88 or AA similiar. If you aren't, then 1.reraising a very marginal hand out of the blind when u could have taken a free flop, and 2. then always shutting down if you get called and did not catch a good hand is a problem, especially in a Shed game. (I may be misunderstanding as I can see how a wide variety of hands that he may have are causing some concern on this particular board.) You're giving this opponent a legitimate reason to hit you with some fancy plays. Back to the hand tho... I'd still be very suprised if you're ahead here.

I do mix up my play by check/raising turns occassionally with big hands OOP so that I can make turn check/folds like this. However, I don't think I sat with this guy long enough for him to realize that if he's even paying attention.His range seems limited to either monsters or bluffs when he checks the turn. I ugess I put myself in a tough spot with the river bet (which I agree was terrible), but I ended up calling because the only hands I see him playing this way are hands > top 2, or very weak hands, most of which I beat. Getting 2:1 on my money seemed like a fair price.Anyway, he turned over J7. I guess I got kinda lucky since I almost pushed myself off the best hand there on the end.

[Scott3705 0]

wow, his raise was really bad.

[screech 0]

wow, his raise was really bad.

why?he would have folded you.

[Scott3705 0]

why?he would have folded you.

He's got too much showdown value against your "weak" hand. Why's he betting? to get called by a worse hand? no. What types of better hands do you play like this that you're folding? not many. This is really simple... poker 101, we don't bet marginal hands in position on the river.

[screech 0]

He's got too much showdown value against your "weak" hand. Why's he betting? to get called by a worse hand? no. What types of better hands do you play like this that you're folding? not many. This is really simple... poker 101, we don't bet marginal hands in position on the river.

That applies more to limit. If raising will fold all hands he beats plus some that beat him, it may be best even if it looks like I have a weaker hand.

[Scott3705 0]

That applies more to limit. If raising will fold all hands he beats plus some that beat him, it may be best even if it looks like I have a weaker hand.

Totally disagree. I don't play limit that often, but from my limited experience, it is much better to bet more marginal hands in limit on the river because you get more calls from weaker hands. (Case in point, Actuary's post looking for value from underpairs with his flush). Betting these types of marginal hands on the river is usually spewing in NL. Three types of hands here. 1. Weaker hands that aren't calling anyway. 2. Monsters. (or backed into monsters) 3. marginal better hands. Groups 1&2 are what are making up our range here most of the time (mostly group 1) and not all of 3's are folding. (And the few times it's group 2, we're going to get reraised here and have to wonder what happened. Assuming a little better, but marginal hand) His play is in no way best.Edit: I wil say i like it if he's trying to mess w/ u.