23 replies to this topic

[hoeferm]

OK, I was playing a fairly loose 2-4NL cash game last night with a buyin from 100-200$. I have been at the table for twenty minutes, I have 194$, and no real reads on anyone.
Action:
1. I am in midposition and two people limp in front of me (4$ each) and I call with 8c9c
2. Player behind me raises to 16$ (has about 400$)
3. The two limpers call (each with a little over 200$) and I call 16$ bet: pot is now 64$
4. Flop comes Qh6c7c and I flop the top half of a straightflush draw
5. Everybody checks to the raiser in last position and he bets 40$, 1st limper folds, and second limper raises to 80$, there is now 184$ in the pot and I have 178$ in front of me, what do I do?

[nomad_monad]

push. pretty standard.

[gooch]

yep, I can't get away from that, providing the flush is good if you hit it you are pretty close to even on this

[LongLiveYorke]

So did you check the flop? If so, why?

I wonder what Smash would do with this flop...

[XXEddie]

....why did you check

[hoeferm]

I actually messed up the order and was last to act in this hand. So once the action was to me I pushed all in hoping to get them both to fold (pretty unlikely due to size of pot and I only had 100$ over original reraiser) or both to call so I could crazy good odds on my draw. Alas, only one player called and took down the pot with Q10o when my draw didn't come. I know mathematically I was getting pretty good odds (186$ to win 286$ with 1 caller and 426$ with two callers) and ended up as a 52% favorite against the Q10o. Against more likely callers (i.e. not morons with Q10o) like an overpair I am 56% to win, two pair 48-53%, and against a set I am only 42%. But I can't help but think in this situation I am basically a coin flip at best to win the pot and I have to risk my entire stack. I guess I just feel like I can often get my money as a much bigger favorite (i.e. set to overpair, two pair to overpair, tp with better kicker, etc....). It's weird that EVERYONE so far has said they would push in this situation as everyone at my table looked at me like I was complete moron and one old guy even commented that he would never the play the hand that way. Any additional thoughts? Does everybody really push here?

[iggymcfly]

Yeah, obvious push. If you're nitty enough to do anything else, you should quit poker. Well, that's not quite true. I guess I could se smooth-calling to get the other player to call so yoiu get paid off better when you hit, but it's not like you're going to be folding it on any street.

[Naismith]

Against more likely callers (i.e. not morons with Q10o) like an overpair I am 56% to win, two pair 48-53%, and against a set I am only 42%. But I can't help but think in this situation I am basically a coin flip at best to win the pot and I have to risk my entire stack. I guess I just feel like I can often get my money as a much bigger favorite (i.e. set to overpair, two pair to overpair, tp with better kicker, etc....).

It's funny, I called an all in with that exact same hand on the exact same board. In my mind, I said, "This guy is going to push a flush draw" and then he pushed and my mind started to convince me that he didn't have a flush draw. Finally, I went with my original read and he blanked out. I guess the point I'm getting at is...trust your read. Maybe this guy did in this situation.

Poker is a math game. If you can get the pot to lay you good odds every single time you're all in as a slight favorite and you can practice good bankroll management, you might as well start house shopping for that nice oversized waterfront home you've always wanted. Let me bet 186 to win 286 as a slight favorite every hand and see how many times I (or anyone else on this site) don't push! I guarantee you can count the number of times I'm not all in on no fingers.

[Scott3705]

Yeah, obvious push. If you're nitty enough to do anything else, you should quit poker. Well, that's not quite true. I guess I could se smooth-calling to get the other player to call so yoiu get paid off better when you hit, but it's not like you're going to be folding it on any street.

Yeah, considering stack sizes, pushing is fine, but I actually think smooth calling is better. If you call, I could see the original raiser calling since he was only min raised on this board. At that point almost everyone (maybe not the raiser) is stuck to the hand no matter what falls which is a good thing for you. If he doesn't call. eh... You'll be gettin 4.5:1 to call all in on the turn if you blank which gives you enough odds to call for a river card.

Pushing hard on the flop with this type of hands makes sense when we have FE. With your stack (granting no FE), it's just better to call since we will never be priced out of our draw.

[fckthis]

easy push.

[MasterLJ]

If you can get 2 callers to your all-in, this is extremely +EV especially because they will be sharing outs to hands that beat your draw.

Min-raising generally means strength. That guy isn't going anywhere. Figure out an amount that will get the initial bettor to call, just so that the raisor can push. It might leave you with $30 in chips and feel a little strange, but perhaps min-raising here is the answer.

I don't advocate min-raising much, but you don't want the original bettor to think "doooohhhh, I have to call an all-in." You want him to think, "bah, I'm committed, fug it, I'm all-in/I call," so that the raisor can easily move in for the rest of his chips.

[NoSup4U]

I don't think in this case the min raise has to mean huge strength. Everyone checked the flop around to the original raiser. He bets. He could have AK here, he could have JJ here, who knows. Any aggresive player is going to raise him here with a wide variety of hands.

For that reason, I advocate pushing here, because I do think you have some fold equity with the min raiser. Maybe he has a huge hand and calls, but more often than not he has a decent hand and just thinks the original raiser is continuation betting.

If we didn't have any fold equity here, I'd advocate a smooth call to bring the original better along. If you did smooth call, the only way you could possibly fold was is one of the players moved all in for your whole remaining stack on the turn and you didn't expect the other player to call. Thats another reason why I like a push more. By just calling on the flop, the other dudes can be fairly sure you're drawing and will price you out on the turn if they're smart.

Mark

Edit: Just reviewed stack sizes. With your short stack, you can't really fold the turn regardless. You're priced in if you just call on the flop.

[profxavier9]

my mom knows to push there.

[Scott3705]

my mom knows to push there.

Y?

[BeaverStyle]

my mom knows to push there.

oh yes she knows how to push in many positions.

[Craziness]

oh yes she knows how to push in many positions.

Why push?

You pushing may make the initial raiser fold.

You're obviously not getting the min raiser to fold by pushing (you are only raising $100).

So why push?

See if you can get the initial raiser to call $40 more by smooth calling.

Pushing here will only hurt you.

[krup24]

Why push?

You pushing may make the initial raiser fold.

You're obviously not getting the min raiser to fold by pushing (you are only raising $100).

So why push?

See if you can get the initial raiser to call $40 more by smooth calling.

Pushing here will only hurt you.

Um...........

NO

[David_Nicoson]

OK, I was playing a fairly loose 2-4NL cash game last night with a buyin from 100-200$. I have been at the table for twenty minutes, I have 194$, and no real reads on anyone.
Action:
1. I am in midposition and two people limp in front of me (4$ each) and I call with 8c9c
2. Player behind me raises to 16$ (has about 400$)
3. The two limpers call (each with a little over 200$) and I call 16$ bet: pot is now 64$
4. Flop comes Qh6c7c and I flop the top half of a straightflush draw
5. Everybody checks to the raiser in last position and he bets 40$, 1st limper folds, and second limper raises to 80$, there is now 184$ in the pot and I have 178$ in front of me, what do I do?

Are you playing with these people regularly?

Supposing for a moment that we flat call here, what hands do we push with? Two-pair or better?

As the PFR, my job is pretty easy if I can fold my overpair correctly every time the hero raises.

[macphec]

Why push?

You pushing may make the initial raiser fold.

You're obviously not getting the min raiser to fold by pushing (you are only raising $100).

So why push?

See if you can get the initial raiser to call $40 more by smooth calling.

Pushing here will only hurt you.

Wow

Then what do you do on a blank turn?

Easiest push ever

[kdogg]

Why push?

You pushing may make the initial raiser fold.

You're obviously not getting the min raiser to fold by pushing (you are only raising $100).

So why push?

See if you can get the initial raiser to call $40 more by smooth calling.

Pushing here will only hurt you.

1) It would be ideal for you to take down the pot right here. There's a chance both opponents will fold.
2) It is essential that you see both the turn and river. You're guaranteed to see both cards if you push. Let's say you smooth call, and one of your opponents pushes when Qc falls on the turn. You may have to fold.
3) You want the original bettor to fold a better draw than you (e.g. JcTc).