35 replies to this topic

[screech]

Villian is 16/11/5. **** his pf call.Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)UTG ($158.63)MP ($665.01)Hero ($626.10)Button ($636)SB ($581.10)BB ($1041.30)Preflop: Hero is CO with A, Q. SB posts a blind of $3. 1 fold, MP raises to $22, Hero raises to $60, Button calls $60, SB (poster) calls $57, 1 fold, MP calls $38.Flop: ($246) 5, 6, Q (4 players)SB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $250, Button calls $250, SB folds, MP folds.Turn: ($746) 8 (2 players)What now?As a side note, how much is a lot to lose in a session? 1 buy-in? 3? 7?

[gooch]

screech, on Thursday, June 8th, 2006, 3:50 PM, said:

Villian is 16/11/5. **** his pf call.Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)UTG ($158.63)MP ($665.01)Hero ($626.10)Button ($636)SB ($581.10)BB ($1041.30)Preflop: Hero is CO with A, Q. SB posts a blind of $3. 1 fold, MP raises to $22, Hero raises to $60, Button calls $60, SB (poster) calls $57, 1 fold, MP calls $38.Flop: ($246) 5, 6, Q (4 players)SB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $250, Button calls $250, SB folds, MP folds.Turn: ($746) 8 (2 players)What now?As a side note, how much is a lot to lose in a session? 1 buy-in? 3? 7?

Wow, 10 x with AQ? 3 callers? No idea where you are at, AK of clubs maybe6 max, course I don't play that high, I don't even blink anymore unless it is more than 4 buyins down

[Peak01]

Based on the way you played it I think you push for your last $316 dollars.I try to play a smaller pot in this situation. Call the raise preflop and then you can bet or raise on the flop without being committed since the pot would be smaller. This would allow you to get away from the hand later.

[gooch]

Peak01, on Thursday, June 8th, 2006, 3:56 PM, said:

Based on the way you played it I think you push for your last $316 dollars.I try to play a smaller pot in this situation. Call the raise preflop and then you can bet or raise on the flop without being committed since the pot would be smaller. This would allow you to get away from the hand later.

Proving that he is on an AcKc draw you "should" get him off it, unless he has the acesI would echo the call making it an 88 pot instead on 240, easier to get away from I think, AQ is like a tranny, looks good until it's time to put it all in

[screech]

So do you guys only reraise pf with premium hands?The initial raiser had TAG stats, 23/19/3. Opening from 2 off the button, I would guess his range here is pretty wide. By reraising, I often get the pot HU and take it down on the flop with a decent continuation bet. If I just call, this may encourage the players being me to call. Say one of the blinds calls, the flop comes T62, and the initial raiser makes a 3/4 size bet. Now I have to fold, and have wasted $20. With a hand like AQ, it usually means I have to play fit or fold postflop, and most of the time it would be fold. I just don't see how cold-calling can make me nearly as much money (if any), than reraising does. Also, as I alluded to earlier, when I reraise pf with hands other than AA-JJ and AK, I become much harder to read.I could be way off, let me know.Anyway, on to the flop. Once this tight player calls my pf bet and calls my flop bet, he either has AcKc/AcJc/AQs/QQ+. Against that range, I am roughly about a 3:1 dog. Remove AcJc from his range, and I become a 4:1 dog. Since I am only getting a bit better than 3:1 on my money with a push, it is very close. Maybe a check/fold would be best.

[PoppinFresh]

3-betting pf is good, I almost always 3-bet AQ there's no reason to try and play a small pot. Once button coldcalls though I would be really worried, I think you should bet less on the flop, ~175, and then shut down to any action. I don't really know what's up with button just calling the flop, if you bet less on the flop though turn looks like an easy check/fold to me. As played it's tough because you have so little left, I'm not really sure what I'd do I might just end up putting the rest of it inI would consider losing more than 5 buyins in a session to be a lot...I dunno though I'm still in the phase of my NL play where I only run goot

[gooch]

screech, on Thursday, June 8th, 2006, 4:36 PM, said:

So do you guys only reraise pf with premium hands?The initial raiser had TAG stats, 23/19/3. Opening from 2 off the button, I would guess his range here is pretty wide. By reraising, I often get the pot HU and take it down on the flop with a decent continuation bet. money with a push, it is very close. Maybe a check/fold would be best.

No I will rasie with lots of handsWhen I start I seem to be in the 32/13/1.6 rangeIf I can start to build up a stack though and against the right table (you want weak tight of course) you can start to really push them around and my numbers would look more like 40/20/3.4I will raise from anywhere into anyone and will continuation bet any flop, often I will show down a hand with 56 from a utg raise and that will get me action in the future AND will scare people of a 347 flop when I bet at it if they are AKI can be trapped though and flush drawing donkeys can either kill me or make my day

[krup24]

You have no choice but to push the turn here. I see three possile holdings for villian QK or QA, clubs, or a set. Him smooth calling ur flop bet is intriguing but really doesn't define his hand cause he could do this with any of the holdings. And if ur C-Betting this hard either way ur hand is undefined as well. I don't really love the pf reraise but I don't hate it either. I understand ur rationale. I kinda disagree with your desire to isolate the initial TAG raiser to get him HU. I mean if he is playing true TAG poker and he opens and calls ur reraise can his range really be that wide.

[gooch]

krup24, on Thursday, June 8th, 2006, 4:53 PM, said:

You have no choice but to push the turn here. I see three possile holdings for villian QK or QA, clubs, or a set. Him smooth calling ur flop bet is intriguing but really doesn't define his hand cause he could do this with any of the holdings. And if ur C-Betting this hard either way ur hand is undefined as well. I don't really love the pf reraise but I don't hate it either. I understand ur rationale. I kinda disagree with your desire to isolate the initial TAG raiser to get him HU. I mean if he is playing true TAG poker and he opens and calls ur reraise can his range really be that wide.

16/11/5 looks like tag to me in 6 max

[PoppinFresh]

I'm very confused by the ranges you guys are giving...you think a 16/11 is cold-calling a 3-bet with AJs or AQ? I think the only hands he can have are QQ-AA and AcKc if we give him any credit, so turn should be a check/fold even with so little behind

[gooch]

PoppinFresh, on Thursday, June 8th, 2006, 5:15 PM, said:

I'm very confused by the ranges you guys are giving...you think a 16/11 is cold-calling a 3-bet with AJs or AQ? I think the only hands he can have are QQ-AA and AcKc if we give him any credit, so turn should be a check/fold even with so little behind

I think it would depend on what kind of read he had on screech no?

[Jordan]

screech, i think 5 buy ins is a point where I'd be upset if I drop that it.I usually quit after 3 though for a while.- Jordan

[PoppinFresh]

gooch, on Thursday, June 8th, 2006, 8:18 PM, said:

I think it would depend on what kind of read he had on screech no?

Yeah, but last I checked screech isn't a maniac right? Plus I think he would be more likely to 4-bet than coldcall if he thought screech was fos16/11 is pretty damn nitty

[screech]

PoppinFresh, on Thursday, June 8th, 2006, 5:15 PM, said:

I'm very confused by the ranges you guys are giving...you think a 16/11 is cold-calling a 3-bet with AJs or AQ? I think the only hands he can have are QQ-AA and AcKc if we give him any credit, so turn should be a check/fold even with so little behind

I agree with this. I also think youre correct that I should have made a smaller flop bet.

[krup24]

PoppinFresh, on Thursday, June 8th, 2006, 4:51 PM, said:

Yeah, but last I checked screech isn't a maniac right? Plus I think he would be more likely to 4-bet than coldcall if he thought screech was fos16/11 is pretty damn nitty

Your obviously a limit player with all this 3-Bet and 4-Bet and Coldcalls 2 talk. I don't know pokertracker numbers but he said the initial raiser was TAG and thats what I am referring to as far as the preflop action goes.

[Canada]

Assuming he is a good player, he should've raised the flop with that many draws out there and 2 players behind if he had a set or overpairHis call indicates it's more likely to be AcKc AcQx.Push the turn (again assuming a good opponent)Against a weaker player where they will call preflop with speculative hands and then just call the flop with sets etc, smaller, pot controlling bets are needed (still giving him poor odds to call though)I think you created a bit of a mess preflop though. NL is more about implied odds than limit and thus also reverse implied odds.Moves like isolation plays (with chips behind still) are more in the realm of limit where you gain a quick preflop equity edge. The reason this is good in limit is that there is a smaller and more consistent range of money going in the pot post flop and your equity edge runs to +EV over time.

[rusmac31]

Canada, the TAG player smooth called a raise and re-raise preflop. And then he calls a potsize bet on the flop. He's committed 1/2 his stack on the flop...You must assume he likes his hand and will want to see a showdown no matter what our hero does...can't imagine a turn push is going to get him to fold...he's going to be getting 3+ to 1 and if he has AcKc...he'd enough outs to justify a call.Screech...If MP1 range is wide, then re-raising with AQ to isolate is ok with me but once your TAG player (the button) smooth calls a raise and re-raise...you have to be concerned. And then after he smooth calls your flop bet, I'd be really concerned. I'd check/fold the turn. Maybe that's weak/tight but the data you have suggests he's likely to commit himself to a hand if he has a good hand and I don't believe you have any fold equity on the turn (ie. if he has AcKc)I think the turn is check/fold.

[Canada]

rusmac31, on Friday, June 9th, 2006, 4:01 PM, said:

Canada, the TAG player smooth called a raise and re-raise preflop. And then he calls a potsize bet on the flop. He's committed 1/2 his stack on the flop...You must assume he likes his hand and will want to see a showdown no matter what our hero does...can't imagine a turn push is going to get him to fold...he's going to be getting 3+ to 1 and if he has AcKc...he'd enough outs to justify a call.Screech...If MP1 range is wide, then re-raising with AQ to isolate is ok with me but once your TAG player (the button) smooth calls a raise and re-raise...you have to be concerned. And then after he smooth calls your flop bet, I'd be really concerned. I'd check/fold the turn. Maybe that's weak/tight but the data you have suggests he's likely to commit himself to a hand if he has a good hand and I don't believe you have any fold equity on the turn (ie. if he has AcKc)I think the turn is check/fold.

Who wants him folding? We are likely ahead or chopping, and if he does call with AcKc it is still +EV on a turn push.Also as I said that advice was against a good player, whereby we can elimate 2pair or sets because of his flop play.If he is a poor/unknown player then the advice is irrelevant

[gooch]

PoppinFresh, on Thursday, June 8th, 2006, 5:51 PM, said:

Yeah, but last I checked screech isn't a maniac right? Plus I think he would be more likely to 4-bet than coldcall if he thought screech was fos16/11 is pretty damn nitty

I don't know what nitty means and I'm not sure of how screech plays so can't comment thereOne other thought comes to mind though, would villan play QQ this way?Would he call the reraise pre flop with QQ?

[Naismith]

I'm pretty sure the way this hand has played out, you're playing it for your entire stack. Yes, you could check/fold here and save 300, but what's the point? You've got to be ahead here half the time, I would think, and the pot is laying you better than that. Stick it all in on the turn and hope he calls you with KQ or AcKc. If you check it and he checks it and he hits his flush, you're just going to want to kill yourself.I think I should add in that I have no idea what the numbers mean from pokertracker.