Ak Is Always Fun

[Bizzle 0]

A buddy of mine and I were talking about a hand from a live tourney.1k buyin, 412 people at the start. 10k starting chips, blinds are 40 minutes long, start at 25-25, go to 25-50, 50-100.Third level of the tourney. Hero has 21k, hasn't shown down any hands, most of the money has been made raising preflop and continuation betting postflop. Villian is very solid but has 38k thanks to tripling on a 222 flop with 92o when having been given a free flop in the BB.Villian limps UTG. Mid position limps. Hero raises to 350 in CO-1 with AKo, both blinds fold, villian calls, mid position folds. Pot is 950.Flop comes JT3 rainbow. Villian bets 500 into the 950 pot. Hero raises to 1600, villain says "I think top pair has you beat" and calls. Pot is 4150.Turn is off suit 5. Villian checks, hero bets 3100. Villian calls. Pot is 10350.River is a deuce. Villian jams for the rest of hero's 16150 stack. Hero said "Did you miss your draw?" Villian smirked. Hero called.Have at it.

[mk 11]

the turn bet is silly. being able to play a small pot with A-high is nice.

[therrinn 0]

the turn bet is silly. being able to play a small pot with A-high is nice.

This isn't a useful statement. If hero is correct in putting villain on a draw (either KQ/Q9/89, with Q9 being less likely), then hero is 80% to win on the turn. If you are 80% to win a hand with one card to come, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to play as big a pot as possible.

[mk 11]

If you are 80% to win a hand with one card to come, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to play as big a pot as possible.

Of course you can never be certain he's drawing, and sometimes villain will move in on you even when he misses his draw, and then your u/i AK looks poopy.

[Actuary 3]

don't laugh at me, I don't play the high $$ stuff, But, I'd raise more preflop.Probably to 600.Turn bet is too high; however, imo, it makes the river call worse.I think had you checked the turn, his river push is an easier call.But I'd still fold.also, why tangle with a solid player with a big stack so early?I'd take the free card on the turn

[gobears 0]

Villain's lead on the flop is the key. If he hit TP or a set, he should go for the C/R since he knows hero will fire a CB postflop. His bet reads like he's trying to get a cheap look at the turn. Villain also limped preflop; if he's solid, then he's not likely to have a very strong starting hand.This is also live, so hero probably has a better read on villain. It sure smells like a busted draw where villain push/bluffs on the river.

[Bizzle 0]

Villain's lead on the flop is the key. If he hit TP or a set, he should go for the C/R since he knows hero will fire a CB postflop. His bet reads like he's trying to get a cheap look at the turn. Villain also limped preflop; if he's solid, then he's not likely to have a very strong starting hand.This is also live, so hero probably has a better read on villain. It sure smells like a busted draw where villain push/bluffs on the river.

Bears, if you put Villian on a decent range which encompasses one or two monsters and most of the straight draws, do you bet the turn in this spot?

[gobears 0]

Bears, if you put Villian on a decent range which encompasses one or two monsters and most of the straight draws, do you bet the turn in this spot?

If this was online, I'd probably check the turn. I don't really want to put in 25% of my stack early in a MTT with A high. I raised him on the flop and he's still around. I want to keep this pot small also as a bigger pot invites a bluff on the river. If he's got the balls to push on the river with nothing, then I can fold only giving up 2K in chips.

[Bizzle 0]

If he's got the balls to push on the river with nothing, then I can fold only giving up 2K in chips.

This was sort of my thinking too. I thought on the turn hero needed to make a decision in terms of whether or not he wanted to play a big pot or a small pot with the missed AK.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Ignoring the most-likely differences in opponents between a $5 online SNG and a $1000 buy-in live MTT, I'm not so sure I would have bet on the turn there. A free card sure would look nice to an Ace-high hand IMO.

[blakheart 3]

Villian could also have a set of 3's or 2 pair jacks and 10s. Most good players lead with a set, not neccessarily play for the check raise. If he puts Hero on a typically rasing hand after limpers, AK, AA, KK or QQ, he know he is in the lead, but expects to be raises by the preflop aggressor. If he check raises, the hand ends. But he may want to try to get all the money in, and this play works for that.By betting out, he actually could be disguising his hand. When the Hero raises and gets called, it really starts to look like a trap.I don't know. Me, I check behind on the turn. It is hard to know if villian has the goods or is drawing. I like the chance to try to catch a miracle jack for free. The River bet sure looks like a bluff- but can you beat every bluff. Unless the villian has air, you are beat by so many hands. Even A3 has you beat here. This whole hand smells like fancy play syndrome from both the hero and the villian. I am probably weak tight, but I would check behind on the turn and fold the river unimproved.(But I don't play $1,000 buy in tourney's much).

[ForRealDD 0]

I would put villian on TP , or K high...it's a good bet with either...

[tallytownFSU 0]

It also depends on the situation.Unless he's a big donk, his call on the turn is the worst ive seen. If I've got any kind of draw there, I have to c/r the hero if I put him on TP or overs. I want to take the play away from him. He got raised on the flop after he led at it, and called. Then, he check the turn.Smells like a drawing hand to me.Again, this hand is totally read dependant, but I'm saying the hero may have trusted his reads long enough that he knew the guy would've played the hand differently if he had flopped a set.I believe that the check/call on the turn gave it all away.

[Bizzle 0]

I believe that the check/call on the turn gave it all away.

And this is why you called on the river? :-p

[tallytownFSU 0]

Yes that is why I called. I believe that he was drawing.

[Ouch-8s 4]

A buddy of mine and I were talking about a hand from a live tourney.1k buyin, 412 people at the start. 10k starting chips, blinds are 40 minutes long, start at 25-25, go to 25-50, 50-100.Third level of the tourney. Hero has 21k, hasn't shown down any hands, most of the money has been made raising preflop and continuation betting postflop. Villian is very solid but has 38k thanks to tripling on a 222 flop with 92o when having been given a free flop in the BB.Villian limps UTG. Mid position limps. Hero raises to 350 in CO-1 with AKo, both blinds fold, villian calls, mid position folds. Pot is 950.Flop comes JT3 rainbow. Villian bets 500 into the 950 pot. Hero raises to 1600, villain says "I think top pair has you beat" and calls. Pot is 4150.Turn is off suit 5. Villian checks, hero bets 3100. Villian calls. Pot is 10350.River is a deuce. Villian jams for the rest of hero's 16150 stack. Hero said "Did you miss your draw?" Villian smirked. Hero called.Have at it.

A few thoughts:

• Villain is solid, but UTG limps still raise red flags.
• Hero only raised to 350; too small and encourages villain to call. AA/KK probably reraises, although the field is already thinned and he may want MP to stick around if he wants to disguise and gamble.
• Villain leads the flop into the raiser (a known CBer) and flat calls his raise, along with some mumbo jumbo about top pair. Villain is solid; his TP comment makes no sense, what hand would he be playing from UTG here? TT? JJ? QQ? AQ? 89/QK unlikely. Hero is unimproved, and villain stinks like a trap. I'm done with this hand here unless a Q falls, or maybe an A.
• Turn - villain is solid, do we think he's chasing here? Hero has priced him out of his draws on every post flop bet/raise so far and villain has called. HERO IS UNIMPROVED. Hero looks like an overpair.
• River - a safe card falls and villain jams having built a nice pot. HERO IS UNIMPROVED. Villain turns over TT expecting Hero to call and show an overpair?

But I'm just learning so feel free to correct/edumacate me.EDIT- and if I'm right Villain plays the turn like I do...

[Bizzle 0]

A few thoughts:

• Villain is solid, but UTG limps still raise red flags.
• Hero only raised to 350; too small and encourages villain to call. AA/KK probably reraises, although the field is already thinned and he may want MP to stick around if he wants to disguise and gamble.
• Villain leads the flop into the raiser (a known CBer) and flat calls his raise, along with some mumbo jumbo about top pair. Villain is solid; his TP comment makes no sense, what hand would he be playing from UTG here? TT? JJ? QQ? AQ? 89/QK unlikely. Hero is unimproved, and villain stinks like a trap. I'm done with this hand here unless a Q falls, or maybe an A.
• Turn - villain is solid, do we think he's chasing here? Hero has priced him out of his draws on every post flop bet/raise so far and villain has called. HERO IS UNIMPROVED. Hero looks like an overpair.
• River - a safe card falls and villain jams having built a nice pot. HERO IS UNIMPROVED. Villain turns over TT expecting Hero to call and show an overpair?

But I'm just learning so feel free to correct/edumacate me.EDIT- and if I'm right Villain plays the turn like I do...

I've owed you a reply here for a while, so let me get on that.Villain is solid, but UTG limps still raise red flags.Agreed. This was one of the things that initially concerned me about the hand, the UTG limp, but hero said that villian was fairly straight forward and would raise a hand UTG that was decent.Hero only raised to 350; too small and encourages villain to call. AA/KK probably reraises, although the field is already thinned and he may want MP to stick around if he wants to disguise and gamble.Agreed, this bit of information does help define villian's range into a more defined category. We can probably take AK, AQ, AA, and KK out of it for now. Middle pairs, suited connectors, and suited broadways are still possible.Villain leads the flop into the raiser (a known CBer) and flat calls his raise, along with some mumbo jumbo about top pair. Villain is solid; his TP comment makes no sense, what hand would he be playing from UTG here? TT? JJ? QQ? AQ? 89/QK unlikely. Hero is unimproved, and villain stinks like a trap. I'm done with this hand here unless a Q falls, or maybe an A.Your ranges are just about accurate, but dismissing the 98 and KQ possibilites is probably a little early in the hand to do so. I doubt he has QQ either, why would he not put a third bet in on the flop to find out exactly where he is at and hopefully get away from the hand cheaply? Heros range is fairly well defined here, so a third bet from QQ would define exactly where the hero is in the hand. Same with AJ or something similiar. Thus, villian is either positive he is ahead (JJ or TT) or positive he is drawing to be ahead (KQ or 98).Also, if hero is a known continuation bettor, wouldn't villian check a set and let the hero bet it for him?The top pair mumbo jumbo leads me to believe that villian is drawing, he is looking for a free card on the turn.Turn - villain is solid, do we think he's chasing here? Hero has priced him out of his draws on every post flop bet/raise so far and villain has called. HERO IS UNIMPROVED. Hero looks like an overpair.I still don't think we can eliminate sets or draws here. Villian could be planning on making a play if he misses on the river. If villian has a set, wouldn't now be the time to turn the switch on and try to extract max value? Hero has shown a willingness to play a big pot with this hand, so why would villian not try to get all of hero's stack with 2 bets rather than one? This was the street that tally thought best defined villians hand, and while I agree, I still disagree with betting here, it just seems like hemmoraging chips and creating an unnaturally large pot with a weakish hand.River - a safe card falls and villain jams having built a nice pot. HERO IS UNIMPROVED. Villain turns over TT expecting Hero to call and show an overpair?This street looked fine to me, mainly because of the call by the villian on the turn. Why would villian call the turn if he had a set here, and hero has shown a willingness to play a large pot.A lot of this is a feel play and really can't be educated, but these were some of my thoughts on the hand.

[timwakefield 68]

To put it simply, IMO your friend greatly overplayed A-high. Easy check on the turn and c/f if he misses the river (or c/c if he smells a bluff). Keep the potsize down and villain might take a stab at the river, but it won't cost your friend all his chips to see.Then again if your friend had a strong read then go for it....but calling all your chips on the river with A-high is gutsy to say the least.

Yes that is why I called. I believe that he was drawing.

Dude is this from the tourney that you won?

[Bizzle 0]

To put it simply, IMO your friend greatly overplayed A-high. Easy check on the turn and c/f if he misses the river (or c/c if he smells a bluff). Keep the potsize down and villain might take a stab at the river, but it won't cost your friend all his chips to see.Then again if your friend had a strong read then go for it....but calling all your chips on the river with A-high is gutsy to say the least.Dude is this from the tourney that you won?

That is what I said as well. No need to create a massive pot with such a weak hand.Yes, it is from the tourney he won. That should give a decent idea as to results.

[Ouch-8s 4]

Also, if hero is a known continuation bettor, wouldn't villian check a set and let the hero bet it for him?

But if he then check raises, he gives away the strength of his hand. Leading out allows him to call a raise and keep the pot growing.EDIT - I knew I had seen this advice somewhere... Although you are talking about check-check on the flop and then turn play...

Thus, if I check when I flop a set (or top 2 or something similiar) he has a much much easier time defining my hand on the turn if I check the flop and he bets out on the turn and I raise, because now you have limited your hand ranges here to a hand that completely missed on the flop or a hand that hit the flop incredibly good.

Turn - If villian has a set, wouldn't now be the time to turn the switch on and try to extract max value? Hero has shown a willingness to play a big pot with this hand, so why would villian not try to get all of hero's stack with 2 bets rather than one?

Yeah, well I did say that if villain has a set, he played it like I would have. Which was not a compliment. The turn is where I think I need the most work.

[tskillz187 0]

To put it simply, IMO your friend greatly overplayed A-high. Easy check on the turn and c/f if he misses the river (or c/c if he smells a bluff). Keep the potsize down and villain might take a stab at the river, but it won't cost your friend all his chips to see.Then again if your friend had a strong read then go for it....but calling all your chips on the river with A-high is gutsy to say the least.

Congratulations for the correct response. Playing for all of your chips with A high against another good player screams of hero trying to get recognition as a solid player himself. If he's solid and you think he'll bluff the river keep the potsize down and be able to call the river with little risk. Controlling potsize defines break even to okay players from good players, it is very important and this hand is a great example as to how a call with A high can be made and be the correct play with little risk, instead of putting yourself into a very tough spot. I mean since tallytownfsu has said it was him, were you hoping for him to push the river? That would be a crazy read, or did you just decide to stay with your read after the push? What do you do is villain c/r you all in on the turn? Which I think would be a better play for him if he is going to make a play at the pot.

[Bizzle 0]

But if he then check raises, he gives away the strength of his hand. Leading out allows him to call a raise and keep the pot growing.EDIT - I knew I had seen this advice somewhere... Although you are talking about check-check on the flop and then turn play...Yeah, well I did say that if villain has a set, he played it like I would have. Which was not a compliment. The turn is where I think I need the most work.

Gah! You turn my advice against me!Agreed on the leading with the set being a possibility (and I sort of said as much above) which is why I feel (and tally feels) that the turn action clearly defined villian's hand.

Congratulations for the correct response. Playing for all of your chips with A high against another good player screams of hero trying to get recognition as a solid player himself. If he's solid and you think he'll bluff the river keep the potsize down and be able to call the river with little risk. Controlling potsize defines break even to okay players from good players, it is very important and this hand is a great example as to how a call with A high can be made and be the correct play with little risk, instead of putting yourself into a very tough spot. I mean since tallytownfsu has said it was him, were you hoping for him to push the river? That would be a crazy read, or did you just decide to stay with your read after the push? What do you do is villain c/r you all in on the turn? Which I think would be a better play for him if he is going to make a play at the pot.

I'll let tally address this, I don't pretend to know what he is thinking .

[tallytownFSU 0]

Bizzle and I went at it again....-----------------------------------------------Cpt Ron Rico (2:59:11 PM): man, these guys can't get over that i went with my first read and it happened to be rightBizzle(2:59:18 PM): snickerBizzle(2:59:28 PM): i think we all just struggle to justify the turn playBizzle(2:59:35 PM): i still cantBizzle(2:59:36 PM): hahahaBizzle(2:59:42 PM): but i can justify the river callCpt Ron Rico (2:59:44 PM): well, ill tell you, so you understandCpt Ron Rico (3:00:13 PM): IMO, ive seen many a players bet a drawing flop, get raised, check the turn when they miss, and fold to a betCpt Ron Rico (3:00:24 PM): i had seen the villian do it once earlier in the tourneyBizzle(3:00:34 PM): alright, fair enoughCpt Ron Rico (3:00:40 PM): soCpt Ron Rico (3:00:47 PM): i justify the turn bet as followsCpt Ron Rico (3:02:44 PM): I have put the villian on a range of hands from 89, QK, or very unlikely KJ. I figure that I can justify the play by A) he will fold if he missed his draw, B) he will pay to draw again, or C) if he has KJ or any other form of TP, then I still have outs against his hand. Now, if he did have a set, then he raises this turn because i had to have put him on a draw on the flopCpt Ron Rico (3:03:02 PM): so he check raises the turn, if he has a setCpt Ron Rico (3:03:03 PM): but he didn'tCpt Ron Rico (3:03:06 PM): he check/calledCpt Ron Rico (3:03:28 PM): couple that with a TP comment on the flop, and i think it justifies the play very wellBizzle(3:03:35 PM): yeah agreedBizzle(3:03:40 PM): but i still dont bet the turnBizzle(3:03:42 PM): like i saidCpt Ron Rico (3:03:48 PM): yeah yeah yeahBizzle(3:03:51 PM): i can easily justify the river callCpt Ron Rico (3:03:56 PM): but this hand was 99% read dependantBizzle(3:04:02 PM): i know!Bizzle(3:04:03 PM): hahahaCpt Ron Rico (3:04:17 PM): so i justify it with my readCpt Ron Rico (3:04:18 PM): lolBizzle(3:04:21 PM): heheBizzle(3:04:24 PM): fair enough

[Ouch-8s 4]

Gah! You turn my advice against me!Agreed on the leading with the set being a possibility (and I sort of said as much above) which is why I feel (and tally feels) that the turn action clearly defined villian's hand.

Yeah, I thought I had typed that I understood how the turn defines the hand. In fact I'm sure I did; I must have deleted it for some reason.Either way, yes, I can see that a set (played by a better/less-stupidly-tricky player than I) check-raises the turn. And I understand how Tally justifies the bet, although I don't make it.So am I giving villain too much credit for solid play - why is in with the price he is being forced to pay to draw? I suppose if he hits he may think he'll get paid off (although Tally seems to have dismissed that notion), but isn't he priced out of his draw??

[tallytownFSU 0]

Yeah, I thought I had typed that I understood how the turn defines the hand. In fact I'm sure I did; I must have deleted it for some reason.Either way, yes, I can see that a set (played by a better/less-stupidly-tricky player than I) check-raises the turn. And I understand how Tally justifies the bet, although I don't make it.So am I giving villain too much credit for solid play - why is in with the price he is being forced to pay to draw? I suppose if he hits he may think he'll get paid off (although Tally seems to have dismissed that notion), but isn't he priced out of his draw??

Ouch,I do believe he thought he could bust me if he hit his card. I definately didn't want any K or 7 falling on the river. If he still pushes on that card, then I'm more likely to fold than not.Again, this hand was totally read dependant. I tried to price him off his draw on the turn. It didn't work. He tried to represent the set on the river, which was too late. I have to call there.If I'm in the villians position, I c/r the flop to take the play away from him. I put all his chips in the middle. If I have KQ or 89, I've still got plenty of outs.I don't know, maybe I've read Super System too many times, but I just don't think I can justify the villian having anything but a drawing hand from the way he played it. I wish DN would opine about this, would like to hear his opinion.