15 replies to this topic

[Travis R]

I have a final table strategy question of a $60 buy in tournament at the Horseshoe. We were 5-handed with 5th place paying $470, 4th place paying $530, 3rd place paying $680, 2nd place paying $1250, and 1st place paying $1800. I was in third chip position in the big blind when everybody folded to the chip leader (very aggressive) who raised 1/3 of his stack on the button. The small blind (2nd chip leader) moved all in, immedeiately followed by the chip leader calling out of position. I looked down to see QQ. I was wondering what you would all do in this situation. I will let you know what I did and what the other players had after I see your opinions.

[foodbanker]

AS much as want to give a little bit of my useless advice can you clarify your post first.chip leader on the button..2nd chip leader in the small blind. And you are in the BB with QQ..ok I think i got thatBUt, how did the chip leader call the all in before you were able to act?And what was the blinds and your stack?

[tekn0wledg]

Yeh I'm a bit confused on the order of betting myself. Can we have some information on the pot amount, ie how much the blinds were and how much the guy moved all-in for.Based on the play if the SB was short stacked I'd have to say I'd call here, he's probably trying to steal a pot from the chip leader.With limited information though I can't say for sure.

[wrto4556]

PLEASE!! Give us poker fanatics the nitty gritty...seems like an interseting situation. If it's not too much of your stack, a call would be great...get to have 2 folks trying to knock out the small blind...but I don't know. Stack sizes? Blinds? Anything you can think of...

[Travis R]

OK, button has about 40,000, small blind has about 38,000, and I have about 35,000 in the big blind. The blinds are 2,000-4,000 with a 400 chip ante. There are about 140,000 chips in play with the short stack having about 7,000 and the other guy having about 20,000. I hope this is enough information.

[Travis R]

I forgot to mention that the chip leader was drunk and acted out of turn, but made it pretty clear that he intended to call.

[spacemonkey]

I think you'd have to fold. WIth that action it's probable that you're up against AK and another pocket pair maybe even a bigger pair than queens. One of those two is basically about to get knocked out plust the guy with 7k probably won't last much longer. Fold here and you're almost a lock to make it to the top 3 but if you call you're probably going to have to win a race. So for maximum profit folding is probably the best action.Also consider what will happen if you fold. Unless they both have AK and split there's going to be one giant stack sitting immediately to your right - just where you want him. So I'd suggest folding is for the best but it's a hard call to lay down queens at a shorthanded table.

[dr winston]

FOLD. It's hard to do but considering the leap in winnings you will gain with people going out before you.If you call here you will be gambling. You could win and then you'd have a commanding chip lead and have a great chance to get even more winnings, but it would still be gambling.I would imagine you're up against pocket pairs and maybe higher ones than yours if it's the chip leaders going all in. Maybe if he was drunk, he could have a really bad hand, but if this was to happen to me I think I would be folding and trying to count my extra possible winnings from the losing player.

[wrto4556]

I'm still a little unclear on what the action was...but i'll give it a shot. Button (chip leader with T40,000) bets ~T13,000, small blind ( second in chips with T38,000) moves all in for T38,000. You have QQ in the big blind. wow.Before I even consider if you're ahead let's think of what will happen if you fold. One person will probably win, so...one guys going to get knocked out, regardless of who because T2,000 isn't going to last long if the chip leader loses. So we will have you with T35,ooo; Chip leader with T78,000; Small stack with T7,000; and other dude with T2,000. You would be in great shape.Now if you call, you have two outcomes:1) You lose and get knocked out in 5th recieving $470; assuming they give you 5th because you were the smallest stack involved in the pot. 2) You win and cripple the two biggest stacks at the table, who are surely going to get knocked out soon; leaving you 3 handed with over T100,000 in chips against a player with T7,000 and another player with T20,000. You would almost be guaranteed first place.This leaves me with one question...how good are you compared to the rest of the field? If you are not the best, or even the second best, you should call here, giving you a wonderful chance to win the tournament. The way the betting went, I think you might be ahead. I put the button on something like AQ, and the small blind on a pair like JJ or TT. You're 5 handed, your QQ is probably good. But, if you think you are the best player, there is no point in risking losing (you might be up against AA), because you can out-play the rest of the field and still be in great shape to get first. The risk is definately worth the reward here. But if you are good enough, you don't have to risk it at all....You can still win without getting lucky. Now tell us what happened!

[the_stein]

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[jogsxyz]

The payoff structure for this tourney favors trying to come in second. 3rd $6802nd $12501st $1800By folding you rate to be in second chip position. To call your queens need to be better than 50/50 to win to get a higher expected value for calling than folding. You need to think both players are crazy before you can call.With a more skewed payoff structure favoring first place calling would be more rewarding. Like if first place money was double second. Also you hope to be able to beat the drunk if he should win the pot.

[Travis R]

I figured the first all in to be on a big ace of some kind. The drunk guy was raising a lot, but was folding when reraised. So, I put him on atleast AK, with AA or KK being very good possibilities. So, thinking I was the best player remaining, I folded. Unfortunately, the first all in had A 10, and the drunk guy had AK, two pair came on board and they chopped the pot. I went on to get second when the drunk guy knoced me out whe we were all in preflop with my KK against his AJ.

[CasinoJoe]

Good move. On Johnny Chan's website he talks a little bit about final table strategy. Some pointers he brought out were to avoid getting in pots with the chip leader and to mainly pick on the short stack. In your case, both chip leaders were in the hand so it would have been a correct move to fold. The only hands he said he would go all-in on with the chip leader were AA or KK.

[t-bone]

If it were me in that situation I'd have been allin in a flash. Only 2 hands are beating you, Q's are a MONSTER 5 handed. If you take that pot down you're probably going on to win, 2nd for sure. But i like to play for the win. Obviously the "safe" play is fold and get outta the way, but I couldn't lay Q's down in that spot, against that drunk guy. With only 31,000 left, and 2000/4000 blinds I'd want to build my shortstack up a bit.

[Smasharoo]

Call it.The diffrence in payouts between 5th,4th,and 3rd is marginal. The diffrence between 3rd and 2nd and 2nd and 1st is substantial. Your best chance to win the thing or finish second is to call here, particularly against an isolation move by the 2nd stack against a very agressive player.

[adamkadmon]

Seems like a not so easy fold is the correct move, but then again what kind of hand are you waiting for five handed? Am I going to muck kings here? I think I can get away with mucking jacks but queens? I think an all in call is good . Then again if it's a main event and gus is in the small blind and daniel makes the move on the button, and had been drinking, I fold. Who knows? I think it basicallycomes down to the moment and everything that has preceded it. What was the outcome?