Ak Flops Tptk

[screech 0]

No read on villian.Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)CO ($722)Button ($394)SB ($368)BB ($594.30)Hero ($825)MP ($423)Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, K. SB posts a blind of $2. Hero raises to $15, MP calls $15, CO calls $15, 2 folds, BB calls $11.Flop: ($62) K, 7, 8(4 players)Hero bets $60, MP raises to $120There is $240 in the pot. ($300 after I call)MP has a little under $300 left. What's my play for the rest of the hand?

[irishguy 14]

if you think you are ahead here you need to push in- Its very likely villian has AK or KQ. Set of 7's or 8's is possible as well. Whats your read on him? What quality of hands has he shown from mp? Is this a standard continuation bet from you when you raise from ep? I'd prefer to push or let it go here cus, what are you hoping for on the turn? If you just call here any reasonable bet on the turn from you comitts you...then if you check the turn he likely jams so then what? ...move in or fold on the flopedit: Sorry I just noticed you said no read on him but does he have one on you? ie: standard cont bet as mentioned above

[Jordan 1]

Bah. He just called your raise which I normally put guys on pairs, or maybe hands like KQs or KJs, but I'd be more likely to assign at least one caller a pair since we are raising in EP (most guys who are decent will drop hands like KT/KJ/KQ), so I think you need to decide on the flop if you think he's flopped a set or has KQ and is min riasing to see where he is at.IMO, min raises to me are going to be more often a set, but you'll also see sometimes a weaker king here. Problem is if you re-raise and he pushes you are like "oahfeowhawofhawoehtaw". If you are willing to go through a buy in with just TPTK here I wouldn't fault a push, but I'd be more surprised to see KQ/KJ, than a set of 8s or 7s, or maybe maybe 87s.- Jordan

[screech 0]

Villian had no read on me either. It was only 1 orbit into the session, and I never play NL.A few hands ago I got all in with AA vs KK, but that's all that's really happened.I think I raised one pot to 15, made a 2/3s continuation bet, and took it down.Ok, so I pushed, which seems like it may not be that bad, but probalby isn't optimal either. I wonder if it may be better to call and go for a turn check/raise? That way, I don't scare him off a hand like KQo. If I'm willing to get all the money in, wouldn't that be better?

[Scott3705 0]

Villian had no read on me either. It was only 1 orbit into the session, and I never play NL.A few hands ago I got all in with AA vs KK, but that's all that's really happened.I think I raised one pot to 15, made a 2/3s continuation bet, and took it down.Ok, so I pushed, which seems like it may not be that bad, but probalby isn't optimal either. I wonder if it may be better to call and go for a turn check/raise? That way, I don't scare him off a hand like KQo. If I'm willing to get all the money in, wouldn't that be better?

That's what I was thinking as well. If this is kq, kj, the min raise is intended to leave room to fold if you come over the top. If this is a set, it's meant for value. If you push, you get calls from hands that are crushing you and folds from hands you are dominating besides the drawing hands which wil usually be more aggressive than a min raise. So to Irishguy and Jordan, what do we gain from a push here? Why don't we go for a turn C/R and catch the villian trying to valuebet kq, kj. Cause if we're really not willing to go all the way w/ this hand OOP, we need to fold it to the min raise.

[Jordan 1]

That's what I was thinking as well. If this is kq, kj, the min raise is intended to leave room to fold if you come over the top. If this is a set, it's meant for value. If you push, you get calls from hands that are crushing you and folds from hands you are dominating besides the drawing hands which wil usually be more aggressive than a min raise. So to Irishguy and Jordan, what do we gain from a push here? Why don't we go for a turn C/R and catch the villian trying to valuebet kq, kj. Cause if we're really not willing to go all the way w/ this hand OOP, we need to fold it to the min raise.

uhm, if you really think KJ or KQ is gonna 'value' bet any turn then sure, go for it.That's one way to get a read, cause you're going to a showdown no matter what.I personally think that if it is KQ/KJ he'll most likely check behind on the turn, but bet with a set.I don't think I'd push this flop, I'd be more willing to fold than push. If I was willing to get all my chips in though with TPTK, calling and check/raising the turn I guess is fine, if that's what you like to do.I take it though if a Q or J falls on the turn though we are check/folding?Also, sometimes I do this to get guys to tell me their hand (even though I know how easy it is to lie) I'll make it sound like I'm making a big laydown, and weirdly enough I've been shown so many hands it's sick. This is kinda off topic, but if you are ever caught in a spot where you know you are so behind, but you just wanna see opponents cards, say something that makes you sound really weak/tight...it's so wonderful to get 'free' information this way.- Jordan

[Scott3705 0]

uhm, if you really think KJ or KQ is gonna 'value' bet any turn then sure, go for it.That's one way to get a read, cause you're going to a showdown no matter what.I personally think that if it is KQ/KJ he'll most likely check behind on the turn, but bet with a set.I don't think I'd push this flop, I'd be more willing to fold than push. If I was willing to get all my chips in though with TPTK, calling and check/raising the turn I guess is fine, if that's what you like to do.I take it though if a Q or J falls on the turn though we are check/folding?Also, sometimes I do this to get guys to tell me their hand (even though I know how easy it is to lie) I'll make it sound like I'm making a big laydown, and weirdly enough I've been shown so many hands it's sick. This is kinda off topic, but if you are ever caught in a spot where you know you are so behind, but you just wanna see opponents cards, say something that makes you sound really weak/tight...it's so wonderful to get 'free' information this way.- Jordan

In a six handed game, you're really going to check there w/ kq against our hero?

[Jordan 1]

In a six handed game, you're really going to check there w/ kq against our hero?

me? no.i have no idea how the villian plays in this hand...im kinda walking on ice.this is just what im thinking.it's a min raise. a min raise means one of two things. 1 he is scared money and is playing KJ/KQ. If called, most ppl playing scared money can't keep firing. He wants to get to a cheap and easy showdown. Gladly checking it down.2, he is an idiot, who min raises flops to get guys tied to a hand, then wakes up more on the turn. In this situation, if called on the flop he's gonna to fully assume hero has a hand like AK, KQ, and will bet accordingly to the pot size, most likely committing himself to the hand, which is more often a set than just TPGK here.If i'm playing this hand and have KQ or a set here, I raise the flop to about 180 - 200. If I have a set obviously the hnad plays itself, if I'm with KQ and am called or re-raised I most likely give the hand up.I posted a hand like this a few days ago...i had KQ and flop was Q78, PF utg raiser bet out the pot and i raised from 52 to 200, he pushed and I folded for the $450 or so behind me. I was pissed at the time, but when we hit our hand we obvioulsy can't just quit cause we are "scared" we are behind..but with different people and in different situations, getting away from TPTK, is something we'll have to do a few times (more than that) in NLHE cash games.With no read, I'd honestly probably lay this down and tell the guy I had a hand like JJ and it really pained me. Hopefully he tells us what he had, or better yet shows us something.I really think KQ is the only hand we are ahead of on this flop, with action preflop and on the flop as my only source of info.take it FWIW.- Jordan

[Scott3705 0]

me? no.it's a min raise. a min raise means one of two things. 1 he is scared money and is playing KJ/KQ. If called, most ppl playing scared money can't keep firing. He wants to get to a cheap and easy showdown. Gladly checking it down.- Jordan

I didn't think about bolded above which makes sense. So I guess against an unknown, we'd rather just call and fold a turn and just hope and ace of king doesn't pop.

[irishguy 14]

I'd definately lead more to folding this than pushing on the flop as well. Calling and check raising the turn is doable as Jordan said if you think a KQ or KJ are going to bet at it again. If you simply call the flop any bet Villian makes if checked to him on the turn will comitt him now lets assume for a minute he's smart enough to know that. So with the pot at $242 any move with Villians stack of $288 at this point is likely all in. If he's gonna push the turn all-in is he really doing this with a weaker king? Are you going to be any more confident at this point than you were on the flop? Thats why I say if you are going to be willing to put it all in on TPTK do it on the flop or save the $60 and fold.

[krup24 0]

No read on villian.Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver) CO ($722)Button ($394)SB ($368)BB ($594.30)Hero ($825)MP ($423)Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, K. SB posts a blind of $2. Hero raises to $15, MP calls $15, CO calls $15, 2 folds, BB calls $11.Flop: ($62) K, 7, 8(4 players)Hero bets $60, MP raises to $120There is $240 in the pot. ($300 after I call)MP has a little under $300 left. What's my play for the rest of the hand?

Man this reminds me of a hand I had yesterday at 1/2 NL 8 Handedkrup ($240) UTG+1MP1 ($208)Button ($534)BB ($165)dealt to krup (A )(K )krup raises to $8, MP1 calls $8, Button calls $8, BB calls $8flop: K 6 5 ($33)krup bets $28, MP1 raises to $56, 2 foldsI folded, I have played a bit w/ MP1 he is a decent player kinda straightforward I guessHe claims he had 66 but I will never know. I kinda feel like Jordan and 66 and 55 are definitely in his range but so is AK and KQ sooted. It very easily could be a declaration of the king if I raised pf w/ QQ or worse.It seems as I move up in limits the min raise is becomming a very strong bluff weapon. At the lower limits this was the easiest tell of a monster about 95% of the time. Now I'm starting to wonder.I'm curious if you folded screech

[Jordan 1]

He pushed, krup.- Jordan

[Jordan 1]

Screech, I'm curious what he did when you pushed? I've had a few issues with AK lately myself, but in my hand I had c/r big on the flop and basically committed myself. I also had a "read" on my opponent that he was quite aggressive, but I walked into his set.However, in this hand, with your lead, you are given the opportunity to get off the hand to his raise, if you so believe you should. Granted you have no read here, so that makes it differently...But because you raised this hand UTG, I think you will be shown a set here more often than KQ/KJ. And as we said earlier, KQ/KJ will most likely fold to an all in on this flop, so if you "put" him on that range, a check/raise may be better on the turn.However, I've already stated I personally think this will be a set more often than KQ and I'm sticking to that.I think if you raised this at CO and button calls, I'd give him a range of AQ/KJ/KQ/AJ type hands and be much more to get it all in on the flop or turn, but when we raise UTG we need to be more aware that pairs are going to cold call our raise much more often than hands like KQ/KJ.Again, this varies moreso now in our mind because we have no read, but...I think my assumption is a safe bet to make.And lastly, there are ways to intice people to showing you their hands. Try it sometime. Make yourself sound weak/tight. You'll sometimes get shown "bluffs" that are actually hands that beat you, and sometimes you'll just see a hand that really is ahead of you and you get some free info. It's wierd how many people are willing to show a hand when you make a 'tough' laydown.- Jordan

[screech 0]

Screech, I'm curious what he did when you pushed? I've had a few issues with AK lately myself, but in my hand I had c/r big on the flop and basically committed myself. I also had a "read" on my opponent that he was quite aggressive, but I walked into his set.However, in this hand, with your lead, you are given the opportunity to get off the hand to his raise, if you so believe you should. Granted you have no read here, so that makes it differently...But because you raised this hand UTG, I think you will be shown a set here more often than KQ/KJ. And as we said earlier, KQ/KJ will most likely fold to an all in on this flop, so if you "put" him on that range, a check/raise may be better on the turn.However, I've already stated I personally think this will be a set more often than KQ and I'm sticking to that.I think if you raised this at CO and button calls, I'd give him a range of AQ/KJ/KQ/AJ type hands and be much more to get it all in on the flop or turn, but when we raise UTG we need to be more aware that pairs are going to cold call our raise much more often than hands like KQ/KJ.Again, this varies moreso now in our mind because we have no read, but...I think my assumption is a safe bet to make.And lastly, there are ways to intice people to showing you their hands. Try it sometime. Make yourself sound weak/tight. You'll sometimes get shown "bluffs" that are actually hands that beat you, and sometimes you'll just see a hand that really is ahead of you and you get some free info. It's wierd how many people are willing to show a hand when you make a 'tough' laydown.- Jordan

Good analysis. I'm still trying to adjust to the small pots with marginal hands idea that goes with nl. I'm so used to jamming this flop in limit.Anyway, after I pushed he called and showed 87o. At least I got a read.

[No_Neck 0]

I try not to get it all in with one pair, ever unless it is AA or KK and even then you want to get the money in early in the hand.

[NoSup4U 0]

Your large pf raise and pot sized flop bet make this hand much harder to get away from. Control the pot better based on your stack sizes.I agree with most everyone else, either fold or push in here. You haven't left yourself any wiggle room with the pot as big as it is.Mark

[fckthis 0]

Your large pf raise and pot sized flop bet make this hand much harder to get away from. Control the pot better based on your stack sizes.I agree with most everyone else, either fold or push in here. You haven't left yourself any wiggle room with the pot as big as it is.Mark

I agree with this notion as well.

[screech 0]

I try not to get it all in with one pair, ever unless it is AA or KK and even then you want to get the money in early in the hand.

My hand is no different than if I had AA on this board. But yeah, I don't like my push.

I agree with this notion as well.

I completely disagree.3-4x BB pf is 100% standard. Pot size bet with TPTK on this drawy flop is against multiple opponents is too.The reason the pot got so big is because my pf raise got called in more than one place by weak hands. Not because I raised maybe $3 more than you would have pf. Jesus Christ. Anyway, so the pot gets big. I a decent vulnerable hand in a large pot multiway pot. That's no time to get weak and throw out 2/3s pot bet. Cmon guys. I'm a nl noob and even I know I got that right.

[Scott3705 0]

My hand is no different than if I had AA on this board. But yeah, I don't like my push.I completely disagree.3-4x BB pf is 100% standard. Pot size bet with TPTK on this drawy flop is against multiple opponents is too.The reason the pot got so big is because my pf raise got called in more than one place by weak hands. Not because I raised maybe $3 more than you would have pf. Jesus Christ. Anyway, so the pot gets big. I a decent vulnerable hand in a large pot multiway pot. That's no time to get weak and throw out 2/3s pot bet. Cmon guys. I'm a nl noob and even I know I got that right.

I completely agree with you.Edit: We hate to get 'em all in w/ one pair because we know at showdown, we rarely ever win with one pair. But there are just sometimes we have a hard time avoiding a pot getting out of hand which keeps us from having much wiggle room. I don't we can chalk the difficulties in this hand particularly up to Screech artificially bloating the pot. All his bets are standard here.

[No_Neck 0]

My hand is no different than if I had AA on this board. But yeah, I don't like my push.

I am not saying it is a hard and fast rule, it has just helped me from pushing very marginal hands and making myself insane. and AA would be different because there wouldn't be an A on the board, it is like the difference between split pair hidden pairs in stud, if they are hidden it adds value.once again, just a rule that has helped me remember one pair sucks allin in NLHE

[NoSup4U 0]

3-4x BB pf is 100% standard. Pot size bet with TPTK on this drawy flop is against multiple opponents is too.The reason the pot got so big is because my pf raise got called in more than one place by weak hands. Not because I raised maybe $3 more than you would have pf. Jesus Christ. Anyway, so the pot gets big. I a decent vulnerable hand in a large pot multiway pot. That's no time to get weak and throw out 2/3s pot bet. Cmon guys. I'm a nl noob and even I know I got that right.

That is not true at all. While 3-4X the bb is common, it is by no means standard. Many players (including the one who's site you're reading ) advocate smaller pf raises. And they also advocate betting 1/3 to 2/3 the pot, depending on the structure. (more obviously if its 'draw heavy')And if you do the math, you will see that betting 2.5X the bb pf and 4X the bb pf drastically changes your ability to maneuver post flop. ESPECIALLY when you are called in more than one place by weak hands, as you say. Just like in your case, you have no room to raise the raise, and then fold. If you're going to raise, you might as well push. But with 30% less in the pot, you can raise, and still fold.Raising 4X the bb pf is not wrong. But it is a tool for players to use that don't like to play post flop. There was actually just an article in Cardplayer by Alan Goehring (sp?) about how he seldom raises more than 2.5X, and only 2X the bb many times. The 4X bb raise is common because most books for new players advocate this because it takes the hand part (post flop play) out for the most part.And I find your comment about a 2/3 pot bet being weak sort of ironic, when you've flopped a great hand and are now thinking of making a weak fold to one raise. You have no idea if you're beat or not. And the pot size vs. stack sizes don't really let you find out. Thats your problem.Not flaming you. 4X bb bets are fine. But that was your problem in this pot imo. A smaller bet, plus smaller calls, equals a smaller pot on the flop. Then a slightly smaller flop bet, and then a smaller flop raise, all add up to be able to let you reraise the guy to see if he's willing to commit his stack. If so, then you can safely fold to a set. Right now, you can safely fold to a set, or maybe 6 other hands you can beat.MarkAlso, just a followup on this: Have you noticed that in 3 or 4 threads lately people keep getting in this same predicament? You get raised on the flop with TPTK and don't know what to do, because if you call/raise, you are basically pot committing yourselves.Study/think about how your pots are going down when you get stuck like this, and see what you think. Playing smaller pots with medium hands like TPTK is so crucial. Mark

[screech 0]

Soup,Alan Goehring is the exception, not the rule. Very few players have his postflop skill/trickery, and the overall game strategy that can make tihs pf strategy work. I was reading an alan goehring post over at 2+2 today. He chimed in and commented on his style a bit. He said that he would advice most players not to play the kind of style he does, since they will likely go horribly wrong. He admitted he makes a ton of -ev decisions, but they are in the broader scope of his overall play and that he does them delibrity. I think that 99.9% of the poker players who try to adopt his style will fail becuase they don't know the other hundreds of complex things he does that make it work.Also, Ive been watching the stoxpoker videos/commentary, and he always raises 4xBB in nl, and it seems to work great for him (he's no slouch postflop either). I've been reading posts over at 2+2. and it seems like just abuot everyone raises at least 3.5xBB preflop, even the players who are great postflop that aren't looking just to end it quickly. I don't think your potsize arguement really comes into play here, because I got 3 ****ing callers! I can't control that. The pot would normall be have that size, which is quite managable. Also, I haven't had any problem getting stacked because of my 3.7xBB raises. If I get one caller, that's only $8 more in the pot preflop than if I had raised 3xBB. Give me a break. $8 is not the difference between me getting pot commited or not. That $8 does discourage players from playing their suited connectors or small pocket pairs or other disguised hands that can bust me a lot more though. The reason people get stacked when they make these raises is because they have a short stack, not because there is an extra BB or 2 in the pot pf. I always reload, so this isn't a problem for me.

Study/think about how your pots are going down when you get stuck like this, and see what you think. Playing smaller pots with medium hands like TPTK is so crucial.

You're right about the medium hands and pot size thing. This is the biggest adjustment I've had to make since switching from limit. But, an extra bet in the pot really doesn't have any bearing on the size of the pot in relation to the stacks.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

The only issue with this push--and I don't think it's that horrible--is that quite literally, no hand you beat will call. KQ? Eh..doubt it.Calling and reevaluating is the best play, IMO, if you don't plan on just outright folding.

[NoSup4U 0]

*nod* Like I said, 4X the bb isn't 'wrong'. I just feel like it limits what you're able to do a lot of the time. But your point is correct, if you only had one caller, you have more wiggle room. And thats the point of a 4X bb raise, to limit the field to just one caller. I just have moved away from that I guess more often than not and its served me well. (I also agree that Alan is by far an exception because he's just a min raising nut ( ) but there are a lot of sucessful small ball players out there right now like Daniel, Edog, Hellmuth, Gus Hansen, etc. On the flip side, I heard Hellmuth interviewed on The Circuit (which is well worth a listen if anyone doesn't follow it on Cardplayer) recently and he was saying that he is switching his strategy up a bit to play larger pots pf with big hands like AA and KK. So, clearly, there is no consensus here. I've just found that for me, and many times when I see posts here about a decision on the flop, a central theme is that the pot has become so large that calling a raise is just about pot commiting you. So I've just been trying to be the lone voice in the woods on this one lately, encouraging everyone to experiment with smaller pf raises and flop bets.gl,Mark

The only issue with this push--and I don't think it's that horrible--is that quite literally, no hand you beat will call. KQ? Eh..doubt it.Calling and reevaluating is the best play, IMO, if you don't plan on just outright folding.

Good point. Perhaps you can make AK fold? But you have to be concerned about someone raising on the draw as well I think.Mark

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Good point. Perhaps you can make AK fold? But you have to be concerned about someone raising on the draw as well I think.Mark

Which is why I don't think a push is awful. I don't think the villain's play always means we're drawing dead to top set, but, I'd tread carefully. And realize that the push wins this hand a lot of the time, but, when he calls, we're almost always drawing slim to dead.