11 replies to this topic

[TheMathProf]

I think the hand more or less speaks for itself, but I'll provide some of my commentary at the end, as well as the real questions I have here.PokerStars Game #1331311067: Hold'em Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2005/03/09 - 21:31:50 (ET)Table 'Alsuhail' Seat #10 is the buttonSeat 1: argodan ($2.86 in chips) Seat 2: TPash ($0.15 in chips) Seat 4: rvrcrdbandit ($1.87 in chips) Seat 5: arlenton ($5.71 in chips) Seat 6: wulfheir ($3.67 in chips) Seat 7: Mr Luckster ($1.10 in chips) Seat 8: TheMathProf ($6.42 in chips) Seat 9: Alibi Al ($1.23 in chips) Seat 10: dbrunner ($1 in chips) argodan: posts small blind $0.02TPash: posts big blind $0.05*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to TheMathProf [Ts Td]rvrcrdbandit: folds arlenton: calls $0.05wulfheir: raises $0.05 to $0.10Mr Luckster: folds TheMathProf: calls $0.10Alibi Al: folds dbrunner: folds argodan: calls $0.08TPash: folds arlenton: calls $0.05*** FLOP *** [Th 9s Ac]argodan: checks arlenton: checks wulfheir: bets $0.05TheMathProf: calls $0.05argodan: calls $0.05arlenton: folds*** TURN *** [Th 9s Ac] [Ad]big-jsb joins the table at seat #3 argodan: bets $0.10wulfheir: raises $0.10 to $0.20TheMathProf: raises $0.10 to $0.30argodan: calls $0.20wulfheir: raises $0.10 to $0.40Betting is cappedTheMathProf: calls $0.10argodan: calls $0.10*** RIVER *** [Th 9s Ac Ad] [2s]argodan: checks wulfheir: bets $0.10TheMathProf: raises $0.10 to $0.20argodan: folds wulfheir: raises $0.10 to $0.30TheMathProf: raises $0.10 to $0.40Betting is cappedwulfheir: calls $0.10*** SHOW DOWN ***TheMathProf: shows [Ts Td] (a full house, Tens full of Aces)wulfheir: shows [As Ah] (four of a kind, Aces)wulfheir collected $2.60 from potI guess ultimately, I'm wondering where I could have improved this hand. My few thoughts are:(1) Maybe I shouldn't call two cold with TT? My own feeling is that at a loose table (and this was relatively loose, even with a raise) that this is probably a reasonable play.(2) I definitely think that I should have raised the flop. We know from what he actually had that I would have gotten re-raised; would that have necessarily told me anything? I suppose it could have and should have, but my suspicion is that it probably would have been another 1.5 BB in this particular situation.(3) I like my turn raise with the underfull. The fact that he capped it, I'm wondering if this should be a warning signal. I was thinking that he would cap from anything ranging from AT through AA, and I'm winning 3 out of the 5 there. My own gut was telling me AK here, although I really couldn't get a read on what he had.(4) The river is what I'm really wondering about. Should I be able to slow down on this river? I don't think he can put me on my hand normally, and I can't imagine that the river helped him. (Although with the nuts, he frankly didn't care what I had. ) Am I chip spewing by continuing to bet this as strongly as I am, or am I correctly betting for value here? Part of me is thinking this was the right play here. The other part of me that's second-guessing this is also somewhat wondering if I've been influenced by the result.Here I'm thinking that there are three reasonable courses of action:(A) Cap it like I did.(B) Call his reraise. (The more I look at this, the more I like this, but I'm not sure why.)© Call his $0.10 bet. (This just screams weak to me, though.)Anyways, any input that anyone can provide would be very useful, and I thank you in advance.

[looshle]

I don't know if I could stop myself from capping that on every street possible. I MIGHT slow down on the river, and I stress the word might, but probably not. Maybe if there was a K or Q on board, but not with the board you had. There's no way you could get away from that, and I usually call 2 cold with TT, maybe even raise with it to isolate myself with the original raiser.

[akishore]

forget the results. i'm going to give you my comments like it didn't matter that he had AA. most of your opinions right now are way too results-oriented... you would feel completely different if he had AK and you dragged a monster pot.

TheMathProf said:

(1) Maybe I shouldn't call two cold with TT? My own feeling is that at a loose table (and this was relatively loose, even with a raise) that this is probably a reasonable play.

calling two cold is perfectly fine in a loose game. in a more aggressive game, you shouldn't fold, you should three-bet to isolate. folding on any table is a wrong play in a limit game unless you have some kind of read on the raiser that says "rock, he only plays one hand every ten rounds, limps with AKs".

TheMathProf said:

(2) I definitely think that I should have raised the flop. We know from what he actually had that I would have gotten re-raised; would that have necessarily told me anything? I suppose it could have and should have, but my suspicion is that it probably would have been another 1.5 BB in this particular situation.

raising the flop is probably the correct move. it'll make the raiser slow down if he didn't hit the ace, and gives you control. on a more coordinated or suited board, you should raise to make the draws pay with incorrect odds (since you were immediately to the left of the raiser), but on this board, it's safe to slowplay a little and try to get a raise in on the turn. either play is fine, but i normally just raise right there on the flop since i don't have the nuts. if it's three-bet, you cap.

TheMathProf said:

(3) I like my turn raise with the underfull. The fact that he capped it, I'm wondering if this should be a warning signal. I was thinking that he would cap from anything ranging from AT through AA, and I'm winning 3 out of the 5 there. My own gut was telling me AK here, although I really couldn't get a read on what he had.

if he leads out on the turn even after you cap (assuming you raised) on the flop, you raise again. only AA/AT/A9 are beating you right now, so you're either drawing dead in three very rare situations or you're way ahead in every other situation. if he three-bets, you cap it.it's far too weak-tight to slow down to only two possible hands that have you beat. why? because the raiser would be just as aggressive with AJ/AQ/AK, and some fish will play any naked ace and be just as aggressive on this board.if the board 9 was a J, Q or K, i would only call a three-bet, since now a pocket pair JJ/QQ/KK or AJ/AQ/AK are possible fulls too. if you capped pre-flop and he checks to you, you bet of course. if he check-raises you, you three-bet it and see if he calls or caps.

TheMathProf said:

(4) The river is what I'm really wondering about. Should I be able to slow down on this river? I don't think he can put me on my hand normally, and I can't imagine that the river helped him. (Although with the nuts, he frankly didn't care what I had. ) Am I chip spewing by continuing to bet this as strongly as I am, or am I correctly betting for value here? Part of me is thinking this was the right play here. The other part of me that's second-guessing this is also somewhat wondering if I've been influenced by the result.

with that river card? no. i'm still raising and capping with this board.forget the results. you played it fine except for the flop. now that i think about it more, if he doesn't have an ace, he's going to check the turn, so you won't be able to raise anyway. if he has an ace, he's going to three-bet the flop and lead out on the turn anyway (forgetting the fact that the turn came another ace), so i would have raised the flop for value, knowing that you'll still get the same amount of bets on the turn and river.aseem

[wrto4556]

3-bet preflop!Everything else was great.

[Smasharoo]

Easy three-bet pre-flop, call a cap.

[AC BillP]

I'd be more aggressive preflop and up to the turn. All your raising with small bets MIGHT (in a rational game) let you know you were looking at aces up on the flop intead of AQ etc. I'd really stop on the river in a higher game, once I was fairly sure there was a strong chance of aces up on the flop. IE. the idea of raising earlier streets is (in part) to figure out where the other guy is at a lower bet increment.

[TheMathProf]

:idea: OK, I've been racking my brain trying to figure out how three-betting pre-flop is "easy" (to tell you the truth, the thought never crossed my mind), but I think I'm getting it here. I was especially surprised to see Smash say "Easy three-bet pre-flop" as I've been following the Stars $50 to $1000 thread pretty religiously, and I know he's been debating whether to raise tens. Anyway, so let me see if I understand what's going on here:I was thinking of my pocket tens like a lot of low-to-medium pocket pairs where I really want to have as many people in pre-flop as possible to help to give me the pot odds to see the flop and to increase the chances that somebody will stick around and pay me off in the event that I get trips. The whole "make trips or fold it on the flop" mentality. Maybe this is the right mentality if I'm relegated to seeing the flop four-or-more handed.What I'm hearing here instead is that the tens are good enough that if I had raised pre-flop: it greatly reduces the chances that the small blind calls two-and-a-half bets cold (instead of the one-and-a-half that he has). it greatly reduces the chances that the limper from UTG+1 stays in for two cold (indeed, he let his hand go pretty quickly on the flop). it might help me pick up that he has a higher pocket pair even if it doesn't, my pocket tens pre-flop might hold up as the best hand, something that's a lot less likely with four to the flop. the reason why this might be different from many other situations where you're debating whether to raise the tens pre-flop is that here, I'm pretty sure I can narrow the field to two (or at least three) with a raise, something that I probably can't be as sure of on most tables with the same handHow am I doing?

[KDawgCometh]

PokerStars Game #1331311067: Hold'em Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2005/03/09 - 21:31:50 (ET)Table 'Alsuhail' Seat #10 is the buttonSeat 1: argodan ($2.86 in chips) Seat 2: TPash ($0.15 in chips) Seat 4: rvrcrdbandit ($1.87 in chips) Seat 5: arlenton ($5.71 in chips) Seat 6: wulfheir ($3.67 in chips) Seat 7: Mr Luckster ($1.10 in chips) Seat 8: TheMathProf ($6.42 in chips) Seat 9: Alibi Al ($1.23 in chips) Seat 10: dbrunner ($1 in chips) argodan: posts small blind $0.02TPash: posts big blind $0.05*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to TheMathProf [Ts Td]rvrcrdbandit: folds arlenton: calls $0.05wulfheir: raises $0.05 to $0.10Mr Luckster: folds TheMathProf: calls $0.10 Alibi Al: folds dbrunner: folds argodan: calls $0.08TPash: folds arlenton: calls $0.05threebet to isolate. Seriously don't be afriad of it with tens or nines*** FLOP *** [Th 9s Ac]argodan: checks arlenton: checks wulfheir: bets $0.05TheMathProf: calls $0.05argodan: calls $0.05arlenton: foldsand you didn't raise because?. You just hit a set on a semit coordinated borad, you must protect your hand. Plus if they have AK or AQ you'll be getting a lot out of them. Your hand is great here almost 95% of the time. Don't slowplay sets, unless its a super uncoordinated board*** TURN *** [Th 9s Ac] [Ad]big-jsb joins the table at seat #3 argodan: bets $0.10wulfheir: raises $0.10 to $0.20TheMathProf: raises $0.10 to $0.30argodan: calls $0.20wulfheir: raises $0.10 to $0.40Betting is cappedTheMathProf: calls $0.10argodan: calls $0.10Fine. You should've popped the riase on the flop too, but c'est la vie*** RIVER *** [Th 9s Ac Ad] [2s]argodan: checks wulfheir: bets $0.10TheMathProf: raises $0.10 to $0.20argodan: folds wulfheir: raises $0.10 to $0.30TheMathProf: raises $0.10 to $0.40Betting is cappedwulfheir: calls $0.10I don't see anything wrong*** SHOW DOWN ***TheMathProf: shows [Ts Td] (a full house, Tens full of Aces)wulfheir: shows [As Ah] (four of a kind, Aces)wulfheir collected $2.60 from potcrappy result. It happens very rearely. Don't rip yourself up based on results oriented hands. You can't see what his hand is. He could very well have had AK or AQ, this is why you need to Threebet PF. When he caps you can then figureout to a reasonable degree what he might have. By Capping AQ can be ruled out, but not AK. But now you can include QQ, KK, and AA. With that Ace on the flop you need to raise and if your threebet then maybe slowdown. Seriously though don't try to do results oriented analysis, it accomplishes nothing. You need to just do analysis based on the play of the hand itself, and there are some things you cold've done better, but there was nothing you could do about the result

[KDawgCometh]

TheMathProf said:

:idea: OK, I've been racking my brain trying to figure out how three-betting pre-flop is "easy" (to tell you the truth, the thought never crossed my mind), but I think I'm getting it here. I was especially surprised to see Smash say "Easy three-bet pre-flop" as I've been following the Stars $50 to $1000 thread pretty religiously, and I know he's been debating whether to raise tens. Anyway, so let me see if I understand what's going on here:I was thinking of my pocket tens like a lot of low-to-medium pocket pairs where I really want to have as many people in pre-flop as possible to help to give me the pot odds to see the flop and to increase the chances that somebody will stick around and pay me off in the event that I get trips. The whole "make trips or fold it on the flop" mentality. Maybe this is the right mentality if I'm relegated to seeing the flop four-or-more handed.What I'm hearing here instead is that the tens are good enough that if I had raised pre-flop: it greatly reduces the chances that the small blind calls two-and-a-half bets cold (instead of the one-and-a-half that he has). it greatly reduces the chances that the limper from UTG+1 stays in for two cold (indeed, he let his hand go pretty quickly on the flop). it might help me pick up that he has a higher pocket pair even if it doesn't, my pocket tens pre-flop might hold up as the best hand, something that's a lot less likely with four to the flop. the reason why this might be different from many other situations where you're debating whether to raise the tens pre-flop is that here, I'm pretty sure I can narrow the field to two (or at least three) with a raise, something that I probably can't be as sure of on most tables with the same handHow am I doing?

You don't want a big multiway with them. They work much better in a shorthanded pot. Its rally simple, if they have AK, AQ, or KQ and they miss you will pick up the pot without having to improve to a set. The more people you let in the more your percentages decrease as you'll only improve to a set 1-7.5. You want to maximize your odds to win. By threebetting you isolate to get the percentages as much in your favor as possible. Isolation threebets can be done with 88,99,1010, and JJ. These are hands that won't take down a multiway pot on their own. If an overcard flop and the person bets out, raise, if you get threebet back, then just all and take one off looking to fold the turn

[obs]

Situations like this happen. I was playing 6-handed on the button in a 1/2 game and called with Ks6s with 1 caller in front of me who has played every hand for the last 2 hours (I am serious). He was also a constant calling station, ALWAYS calling to the river with nothing but an overcard, and usually bet/raised every round with low or middle pair.BB and SB check/call. Flop comes As7s10h. SB/BB check and the maniac raises. I call and SB/BB call. Turn comes 2s. Checks to maniac who bets, I raise. SB/BB fold and the maniac re-raises, I cap. River comes 7c. Maniac bets, and like last round, I raise until pot is capped again. The maniac had 72o.I probably misplayed this some on the button and should have raised post-flop with three calls in front of me. I am absolutely positive though that this wouldn't have caused the maniac to fold, only the SB/BB. He would call to the river with any pair and re-raise with top. Also, since he didn't raise pre-flop I was pretty certain he didn't have a pocket pair or ace. I pegged him as 7X after the river fell. I guess I was right...Oh, and lastly, the maniac managed to get up to $110 after that. He lost it all in the next 2 hours. I just wish I could have taken more (ended a little down for the night).

[TheMathProf]

KDawgCometh said:

*** FLOP *** [Th 9s Ac]argodan: checks  arlenton: checks  wulfheir: bets $0.05TheMathProf: calls $0.05argodan: calls $0.05arlenton: foldsand you didn't raise because?. You just hit a set on a semit coordinated borad, you must protect your hand. Plus if they have AK or AQ you'll be getting a lot out of them. Your hand is great here almost 95% of the time. Don't slowplay sets, unless its a super uncoordinated board

To be honest, I was multitabling this, and I don't think it was so much that I was intending to slowplay as that it hadn't hit me that I had actually hit my set. (Which admittedly, if I can't recognize the need to bet here on this flop, then I think I shouldn't multitable as much...)I sometimes would slowplay a set like this on a flop where I don't think I can get most people to call a bet, but that's relatively nonthreatening, but it's not usually a part of my repertoire, especially when there are overcards that have hit.Also, I do want to be clear... yes, it sucks that I lost the hand, that happens. What my real questions earlier were though was: did I play this hand like a maniac thinking I had a lot better than I did? Or was I justified in playing the way that I played, and simply unfortunate? The answer seems to be more towards the latter opinion, but I wanted to be sure.