Mashchit 0 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)SB (t1250)Hero (t2390)UTG (t2660)Button (t2700)Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A. UTG raises to t600, 2 folds, Hero?Background... $12 6 man sng, 2 people get paid. UTG doubled up early on when someone slowplayed a flopped set and got outdrawn. He sat tight most of the rest of the time with occasional 2/3*BB raises. He then lost a big hand and has pushed a few times with his stack around the 10BB amount. I got short stacked after a couple of beats (a.k.a. misplayed hands) and have pushed quite a bit more than the villain. I've returned to more standard raises since getting a better stack. I haven't reraised anyone pf yet. The other 2 are nothing special.The dilemma... Push or stop and go?I'm not sure which is better here and whether I really have much fold equity at this level of buy in if I push. I appreciate that if I opt for the stop and go then i'm supposed to push on the flop regardless, but are there any flops that I should change my mind on? Link to post Share on other sites
cu in 4years Dan 1 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 PUSH UP! YOUR BODY! YOUR BODY NEXT TO MINE! PUSH UP! IM GONNA MAKE THAT SEXY BOOTY MINE! PUSH UP..... Link to post Share on other sites
Mashchit 0 Posted May 23, 2006 Author Share Posted May 23, 2006 PUSHAINECWhat does AINEC stand for again?Thanks for the responses. I did indeed push it real good.What range of hands would you call that push with if you were in the villain's position? Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 What does AINEC stand for again?Thanks for the responses. I did indeed push it real good.What range of hands would you call that push with if you were in the villain's position?"and it's not even close"he's getting like 30 to 17 right?AJs, AQ+, KJs, 66+ if table was bad.if I felt overmatched..KTs, AT/KQ, any pairI"m not sure... on ranges..I never have a system there....I rarely raise to 600 with 2600 left with any hand I would fold now, 4 handed.Unless blinds are easily stolen.I had 3200 and was in 2nd..4 handed..ChipLeader was on BB... I open pushed (blinds 100/200) with 77 from the Button...and BB says: "tempting...I got Axs..."... so he was willing to clash with other big stack with that..and I"m very tight image. Looking back..not sure why I pushed there..fells silly if QQ wakes up somewhere. I"m not so good in the range where small stacks start pushing and you have to be ready for it post flop when you miss. Link to post Share on other sites
throwemaway 0 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 I would prefer to have a small PP if I indeed was going to do a stop n go, not high cards..Pushing by far is your best option...AKs way too strong pf and way too vulnerable after the flop if you miss w/ your stack to cold call Link to post Share on other sites
mmmikeySong 0 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 I'm surprised I'm saying this, normally i would say push as well but...I like calling pf instead.What's he raising with utg? Probably at least Ax if not pocket pair...I think he's definitely going to call your pf push. He could definitely have AQ though...in which case a stop n go works nicely.Here's what's bothering me though, he obviously knows to push with a shortstack. I'd assume that if he has mid-pocketpair he'd push since he's utg. I could be over thinking it but I wouldn't be surprised if he had at least JJ here.to me stop and go can be more profitable here and safer - i really don't see him folding pocketpair utg. What you can do is call - if you hit an ace, check-raise him all in and if you have a monster draw, push.You don't really need to push pf here since 1990 chips (if u call and fold) doesn't leave you in a desperate position against anyone here. You still have a stack that's to be respected. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 bad, very bad, imotoo busy to list all..others can.UTG will fold here often for one.second.. you assume UTG has concepts of M.1900 sucks at this stagewe have a super premium hand that likes to see all 5 cards.I want to see 100% of the board, not just 60% Link to post Share on other sites
mmmikeySong 0 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 bad, very bad, imotoo busy to list all..others can.UTG will fold here often for one.second.. you assume UTG has concepts of M.1900 sucks at this stagewe have a super premium hand that likes to see all 5 cards.I want to see 100% of the board, not just 60%I respectfully disagree - it's really not a bad play at all to simply call pf. 1900 does not suck at this stage. You can't just categorize everyone as a donk - what's wrong with assuming UTG has concepts of M? From what OP has said, it looks like UTG does have a concept of M, you have to give him credit for it.UTG has played TAG throughout the SnG until he was shortstacked, then he made his all in plays. Now he has 2600 chips and isn't pushing anymore, instead he's raising 3bb utg - I don't like pushing here.The most important rule to tournament play is to stay alive. He's in fine position if he calls and folds. If OP had less than 1600 chips, I'd say to push. Having 1200 chips sucks here - not only because of the blinds but your pf pushes won't be as well respect as a 1900 push. If any of the stacks call a 1900 push and lose, they'd be severely shortstacked - lots of damage can be done w/1900.Actuary, not trying to single you out because I do respect as you a knowledgeable poker player, it seems with every tournament hand, we find ourselves on opposite ends of the pole...oh well, it makes for great posting no?*btw - for me the forums shut down for a few minutes. I almost freaked out when I thought I lost this long response, lol. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 yeah they did shut down..had to actually do work at work :(I respnd to so many, I don't keep good track of who I agree with or not, but I'll trust you on that pattern!staying alive is important.to me, our hand is so strong as to warrant a push.you make good points on the UTG reads... overlooked those after the first reading.Our M=6 if we call and foldI don't put villain on TT-QQ as often as you do, I think. (so I think we have some fodl equity by pushing)here' my summary:power hand..best when seeing all 5 cards..we will fold the would've-been-best-hand 40% of the time by not seeing the turn or river. big overlay.we are rarely against AA/KK1900 sucks as the short stack 4 handed 100/200.Sure, I win a lot from there, but you have no room.you'll feel pretty silly pushing with A9 with 1200 chips left in 2 rounds, after folding here. Link to post Share on other sites
amarillotg 0 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 just to throw my hat into the discussion.i think it is a fairly close call between the stop'n'go and and a pre-flop push.there is not a big difference in the FE for either of these hands.i think i might like the stop'n'go better here because we fold a lot of hands on the flop that are not folding pre-flop to our push.hands like pp's 66-TT when overs flop. Big unpaired hands like AT-AK...i don't want to race on the bubble if i don't have too. even if im a favorite in the hand.truth be told, at the table i probably push but i think the stop'n'go has some definite merit to it here.and just a clarification on the stop'n'go. we would actually see all 5 cards as we push the flop no matter what flops. its like a delayed push. Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 Villain could have almost anything. There are only 4 people left, he could very likely be trying to get the blinds, there is no reason to give UTG merit of an UTG raise when it's 4 handed, much different than 10 handed. Because of this you should be pushing to protect your hand, which is vulnerable with a missed flop, but very powerful preflop. Push and take down the hand a large percentage of the time because of the fold equity. When called you are more likely to be dominating him with a9s-aq than you are to being up against AA or KK. And those are the only hands to be really scared of. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted May 23, 2006 Share Posted May 23, 2006 and just a clarification on the stop'n'go. we would actually see all 5 cards as we push the flop no matter what flops. its like a delayed push.oh yeah..I need to keep that in mind.Can we tell villain to not fold if an A/K flops?But to let us know if he sets his 55?thanks! Link to post Share on other sites
Rocketwadster 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 For me personally, Ive always pushed in this situation, and always either won it outright, or was in a race situation with pocket jacks/queens and lost...lolDespite my "unlucky" history here, I think its a push. Link to post Share on other sites
zipper 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Villain could have almost anything. There are only 4 people left, he could very likely be trying to get the blinds, there is no reason to give UTG merit of an UTG raise when it's 4 handed, much different than 10 handed. Because of this you should be pushing to protect your hand, which is vulnerable with a missed flop, but very powerful preflop. Push and take down the hand a large percentage of the time because of the fold equity. When called you are more likely to be dominating him with a9s-aq than you are to being up against AA or KK. And those are the only hands to be really scared of.I agree. To be clear, I suggest you do not consider this an UTG raise, but a raise from the cutoff. With 4 players considering the first to act as UTG is just too conservative. If this raise comes from the cutoff spot it becomes much clearer that all-in move is good. Remember to adjust your view of position for the number of players remaining. Link to post Share on other sites
thenamezjohn 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 pushhhhhhh... if we pull a stop n go.. and villian hits on the flop while we dont.. all has gone to waste.. might as well place max pressure from the beginning and force the villian to make a decision.. after all.. a-k is only a-k.. not a pair.. Link to post Share on other sites
Mashchit 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Author Share Posted May 24, 2006 Thanks for all the comments.I instapushed and the villain called and the flop came down with 3 low/mid spades. Flop based decision making made me wonder if I should have flat called to see the flop. Let's say I did decide to stop and go there and see that flop - do I still follow through regardless with my two hearts or save my 1990 for A9 2 hands later? Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)SB (t1250)Hero (t2390)UTG (t2660)Button (t2700)Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A. UTG raises to t600, 2 folds, Hero?Background... $12 6 man sng, 2 people get paid. UTG doubled up early on when someone slowplayed a flopped set and got outdrawn. He sat tight most of the rest of the time with occasional 2/3*BB raises. He then lost a big hand and has pushed a few times with his stack around the 10BB amount. I got short stacked after a couple of beats (a.k.a. misplayed hands) and have pushed quite a bit more than the villain. I've returned to more standard raises since getting a better stack. I haven't reraised anyone pf yet. The other 2 are nothing special.The dilemma... Push or stop and go?I'm not sure which is better here and whether I really have much fold equity at this level of buy in if I push. I appreciate that if I opt for the stop and go then i'm supposed to push on the flop regardless, but are there any flops that I should change my mind on?You are not in position for a stop and go...you need to be the first to act to reliably pick up fold equity. If he bets first, which he is likely to do as a c.b., youre not going to get him to fold.Also a stop and go is more effective when you have a pair, not AK.I would call here. Nobody is running away in chips,you all have low Ms, and you have position. I dont see any reason to gamble it up right now. Link to post Share on other sites
Rocketwadster 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Also a stop and go is more effective when you have a pair, not AK.Doesn't Raymer describe a stop and go as something to use when you think you are against a medium pocket pair? Even if you miss the flop with your ace king, it would take a lot of courage for a pair of 8's to call with 2 or 3 overcards on the board... Link to post Share on other sites
throwemaway 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 When you decide on a stop n go, you are making that decision preflop..You can't get scared when the flop doesnt come anywhere close to hitting you and you have to push..Otherwise, its not a stop n go, and your just making a silly call and giving your chips away...Jam it there pfAlso, like Copernicus and I said, stop n go is optimal with the small pp, not the overcards Doesn't Raymer describe a stop and go as something to use when you think you are against a medium pocket pair? Even if you miss the flop with your ace king, it would take a lot of courage for a pair of 8's to call with 2 or 3 overcards on the board...No sir, other way aroundhttp://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...w=&sb=5&o=&vc=1 Link to post Share on other sites
copernicus 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Doesn't Raymer describe a stop and go as something to use when you think you are against a medium pocket pair? Even if you miss the flop with your ace king, it would take a lot of courage for a pair of 8's to call with 2 or 3 overcards on the board...Raymer agrees that the pair is the better hand for a stop and go, and cautions against chickening out when an A or K flop because you still pick up FE against pairs between your and the A or K.When you are the AK and first to act and the flop misses both of you, it can still be tough to get a middle pair to fold, since he is putting you on an A most of the time. If his pair is low enough for 3 overs to flop yeah, he has a tough time calling, but thats got to be pretty rare. Link to post Share on other sites
XXEddie 0 Posted May 24, 2006 Share Posted May 24, 2006 Thanks for all the comments.I instapushed and the villain called and the flop came down with 3 low/mid spades. Flop based decision making made me wonder if I should have flat called to see the flop. Let's say I did decide to stop and go there and see that flop - do I still follow through regardless with my two hearts or save my 1990 for A9 2 hands later?what did he have?and yeah it would be hard to push on that boardwhich is why he stop-n-go play was horrible Link to post Share on other sites
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