an o/8 situation for you.

[Absolute 0]

The situation is this...8-handed Omaha Hi/Lo split.You are playing 2/4 pot limit.You are on the button.You are dealt A 3 4 K UTG callsUTG+1 foldsMP calls.MP+1 folds.CO callsYou call (I would like to hear an argument for a raise here, if there is one)SB foldsBB raises to 16.UTG foldsMP folds.MP+1 calls.CO callsYou callThe flop comes 2 10 A BB bets 30.MP+1 calls.CO calls.What do you do?To help out, the pot contains $156 dollars when it is to you.

[KDawgCometh 2]

I think a pot bet might be correct here, mind you I've only played limit O 8 o/b. You have the nut low, a pair of aces, second nut flush, and the nut straight draw. You want to maximize how much of this pot you could very well scoop, but like I said I've only played limit O 8 o/b and I'd be ramming and jamming here if it was limit. As far as PF a raise might not be a bad idea as you have three to a wheel and two flush draws in your hand, one of which is the nut draw and the other is the second nut. This is a scooping hand

[Absolute 0]

Which is why I think a pot sized bet might be too forceful. But this is why I wanted to hear ideas.My initial thought is 1/2 pot bet to get some action but to perhaps force out at least one caller.

[KDawgCometh 2]

Which is why I think a pot sized bet might be too forceful. But this is why I wanted to hear ideas.My initial thought is 1/2 pot bet to get some action but to perhaps force out at least one caller.

yeah, that does seem correct. I have absolutley no experience playing PLO 8 o/b, so take what i say for whatever its worth. Now if it was PLO high on teh ohter hand, that is a game I have a good amount of experience in

[Smasharoo 0]

Impossible to answer without stack sizes.

[LooseCannon 0]

The hands that could legitimately bet here from the BB include the nut flush draw, top two pair, or a set or some combination of those with either a 34 or 45.I'm actually liking BB here as having a set of aces, since most players only raise in the BB with AA with a decent low draw and a nut flush possibility. I'd fear the nut flush draw. Can't say for sure without knowing the quality of players you are against.The second nut flush draw is always a bad thing to chase in omaha. Consider also that the only time you have the nut flush draw is when the ace of spades hits the board, creating a possible full house. So, you can never really bet hard if you hit your flush.With three others in the pot and position, I just call. You have a good low draw with three outs (the non-spade fives) giving you the nuts both ways. I'm more inclined to call if I know the callers have a tendency to chase weak low draws with no high.I think folding on the flop is a better option than raising.

[Absolute 0]

Well, this is somewhat hypothetical.Say I havw $750 in chips and the only player who doesn't have me covered is the BB who has about $400

[gobears 0]

The situation is this...8-handed Omaha Hi/Lo split.You are playing 2/4 pot limit.You are on the button.You are dealt A 3 4 K UTG callsUTG+1 foldsMP calls.MP+1 folds.CO callsYou call (I would like to hear an argument for a raise here, if there is one)SB foldsBB raises to 16.UTG foldsMP folds.MP+1 calls.CO callsYou callThe flop comes 2 10 A BB bets 30.MP+1 calls.CO calls.What do you do?To help out, the pot contains $156 dollars when it is to you.

I would call at this point - you have some decent draws but they are not as strong as they look.A 3 or 4 counterfeits your low hand and basically could give someone else the nut low and nut straight.2nd nut flushes are ok but not that great in O 8. The raise from the BB as someone else has stated could signal a pair of aces. Would make sense since he now bets out with trips after the flop.

[ghoti7four 0]

your draw is still strong (to the low), but because it is a draw a pot sized raise is correct... worked it out in my head on a smoke break but don't want to take the time to write it all--call me tonight absolute if you want to know why I think so or I'll post it later when I'm off work. something to think about (and a preface) is the fact that you may likely only get 1/4 or worse of the pot if you do make your low. also--and most important... its a trick question... you should flip the table and cry out cheat because mp+1 folded and is somehow back in the hand.

[Absolute 0]

ha!

[Absolute 0]

My original thoughts about a 1/2 pot bet is starting to dampen to the cleverness of a pot sizes bet. As for the argument that this might not be as good a drawing hand as I think. Well, that's a pretty silly argument. This is an incredible strong drawing hand. Also, I am not going to discount a king high flush because there is also an ace high flush. I shouldn't have to explain the odds of this to anyone reading this forum.But seriously, let's count my outs on the turn ALONE.To the nut low I have all the 5s, 6s, 7s, and 8s.16 outs to the nut low on the turn. Even if a two falls on the turn, it's not THAT horrible for me (3 of the 2's are still out there.)And my outs to what I should consider to be a strong playable high hand.All the spades (9) the 5's that aren't spades (3)the last ace (1)So I have 13 outs to the high.Also keep in mind that the turn bringing any five or the 6, 7, 8 of spades is probably an automatic scoop.Sorry, but I am not simply calling in this pot because I don't have the draw to the ace high flush. The odds of scooping here are too great to lets everyone have a cheap card.

[gobears 0]

It is a strong drawing hand but also don't forget that you could easily get quartered on the low side even if you flop the nut low.Now, if I had that same hand and someone bet the pot against me (let's say the BB for sake of argument using your example), I'd probably fold. So, I can see the benefit of the pot bet thinning out the field.

[the_stein 0]

what if the next 2 cards are red queens?

[LooseCannon 0]

Also keep in mind that the turn bringing any five or the 6, 7, 8 of spades is probably an automatic scoop.

If you persist in that thought, you have no hope for this game.Unless you are playing against complete morons who are chasing low only with a 56 or 57 in their hands, the likeliest scenario is that you are splitting low.Consider, what hands are your opponents likely to have. How many of your outs are likely to be in their hands? How many possibilities are there for you to make your hand and have it be the second best hand? Keep in mind that if an 8 falls on the turn, a 3 or 4 on the river utterly ruins your hand.P.S. You are also on a draw. You still need a card to have any sort of a hand. If you raise and get reraised pot by the first player if he has a set of aces, what are you going to do then?

[Smasharoo 0]

[/b]Say I havw $750 in chips and the only player who doesn't have me covered is the BB who has about $400[/b]Just call.I think you're probably overvaluing your hand a little here with considering raising.

[Absolute 0]

How is this an overvalue? I am more than 50% to make my hand.

[Smasharoo 0]

How is this an overvalue? I am more than 50% to make my hand.You're about 10% to scoop with this many callers on this flop.That's where I think you're overvaluing it.

[Absolute 0]

How are you getting 10% to scoop?

[NormanHaupt 0]

Fold.Omaha is a noob game.

[ghoti7four 0]

Smash is right you probably won't scoop this pot with that many callers. Smash is wrong about calling, and methinks doesn't have the moxy for pot limit or no limit games. A pot sized bet a. runs out other low draws increasing your chances to split the pot or b. increases the pot at a rate that when divided by 4 (if everyone calls) makes it such that there is no difference if you only win 1/4 of the pot (with 4 callers you don't lose money three is another story) and c. if you get any callers and happen to scoop the pot makes your win pretty huge.two problems with the pot sized raise...a. your low doesn't come... however your odds are good enough that you can still make this bet.b. you cause everyone on a draw to fold and don't make as much money.this is the only real problem I see. But: calling is weak.All of this is based on the fact that I assume the BB has a high hand or the same draw as you (and I'm assuming its probably the high hand)However, since I'm fairly sure this hand is hypothetical I think that assumptions like this are somewhat dubious because it is still a simulation.I await scathing remarks from the dark apartment romance writing sunchips in two week old stubble reactionary middle school atheist (probably overweight) brilliant but invisible message board guru...with bells on.

[LooseCannon 0]

All of this is based on the fact that I assume the BB has a high hand or the same draw as you (and I'm assuming its probably the high hand)

Let's work through this from another angle. Assume that the BB is a competent player. With what hands would you see him making these bets?

[ghoti7four 0]

given the preflop raise and the board. (and assuming that this fictional character is competent)1. any combination A-5 (with an Ace)2. AAK23. AAKK4. AsA any other spade and a 2 or Kso there are possibilities for a set, the nut flush draw, the nut low draw, a draw to quads or a fullhouse and the low straight as well as less likely draws to the higher straight with a combination of KQJ.the problem is, because the hand isn't real the only way to judge what a good player may have is to give them good omaha 8/OB hand so its kind of hard to make any real dermination.i think its more interesting to speculate as to what the two players who are only calling have... and I have to assume its a draw.also there is the possibility that the BB has both the nut low and high draw so you could wind up winning only 1/4 of the pot against just him... I hadn't really thought about that so anyone who wants to pick up with the implications of that feel free.Absolute--(I find it strange refering to your message board name, but just so everyone knows who I'm speaking at)--this hand is hypothetical correct?

[Absolute 0]

yeahit was a hand i was reading about somewhere actually

[Smasharoo 0]

Smash is right you probably won't scoop this pot with that many callers. Smash is wrong about calling, and methinks doesn't have the moxy for pot limit or no limit games.That's true, I've never played PLO8.

[LooseCannon 0]

I've been thinking about this hand some more.I think that short-handed, with maybe five players at the table, a raise is a legitimate move, but at a full table it's not really a good idea unless some of the callers are the type who would chase just low with a 46 ir 56 in their hand and are likely to call the raise or if you're absolutely certain that you can make someone lay down a nut low draw.You're chasing a high draw to the non-nut flush and a nut-low draw with no backup.Even if you hit the spade five on the turn, which is the card you are rooting for the most, on the river any three or four hurts you (even though at least three of them are probably in someone's hand) and if the board pairs, you have probably lost high. While you do have a lot of cards you like, even if you make your hand, a card can come on the river that should make you consider folding.If, for example, a ten or deuce comes on the turn, then you really have to think about folding, especially if the BB bets pot again and the other two players fold. If a high spade comes on the turn and the BB bets pot again, there is a very good chance that he has the nut flush if he is a good player.