15 replies to this topic

[Erudis]

I'd like to describe a hand I played about a month ago late in a tournament that I still have many lingering questions about. Some of my details might be slightly off... but here goes.Situation and Setting:With about 30 people left in a 100 dollar buy-in online NL Hold-Em tournament (original field of around 200ish) all remaining players were in the money and I was second in chips with about 90k. The chip leader had about 100k and the guy in third place had I think around 45k with the chip average around 20k (I think) and the blinds were 500/1k with 100 ante.I had just got moved to a new table sitting to the immediate right of the chip leader (ugh! the only guy who could really damage me). The next biggest stack at the table had around 30k I think with several short-stacks. I mucked the first 4 hands when I found myself with two red Kings under the gun.The Play:Obviously there are a variety of ways to play this hand in this position but the play I chose was to come out with some thunder and make a very large pre-flop raise. I wanted to make sure that the only player who could damage me (the chip leader to my left) wouldn't be in the hand and I was hoping to put one of the short-stacks all in.So after mucking the first 4 hands and with the blinds at 500/1k I raised to 10k pre-flop. The chip-leader called and everyone else folded (exactly the OPPOSITE of what I was wanting to happen). Now, I've played with him many times in tournaments and cash-games and I felt like I had a pretty good read of him. Knowing how he plays, if he had AA he would have immediately went all in to push me out (and I'd have trusted my read and folded), and I knew also that he wasn't going to call me with any AK, AQ, suited connector, KQ, etc. Again, playing with him many many times I knew he would only call me there with a pocket pair, try to flop a set, and muck if he didn't - that's just how he plays. For whatever reason, I put him on pocket Jacks versus my Kings.The flop comes 10 high (I think 10 7 4, but don't quote me!) all diamonds. Having the 2 red kings it wasn't an unfavorable flop given my read of my opponent (ie, wasn't afraid that he'd called me with say a 89s in diamonds). I go all in, he calls with 2 black 10's, I lose, tournament is over.What was I thinking?:I wanted to end the hand right there. He can at times be a very creative and tricky player and I didn't want to allow him the chance to put a move on me that would make me fold the best hand. Also, knowing him, I didn't think he would call an all in with any hand (even a set) except a flush which I was almost certain he didn't have. His thinking there would usually be that he could surrender the pot (and the chip lead) but still be in fantastic shape and still have position on me (who was his only real threat), rather than call with say, a set, in which case he'd know I had 11 outs to beat him (the 2 other kings, the 9 diamonds; he undoubtedly put me on AA or KK with a diamond).If he had the best hand I thought he could have at the time (a set of 10's, which of course he did have) I figured that even if he did call, I was probably only about a 3 to 2 underdog where winning would guarentee me another final table appearance (and probably another tournament win or top 3 finish worst case scenario).As I said, he did have the set of 10's, he did call, and he did bust me. He told me afterwards that he put me on AA with a diamond and said that he thought calling that flop was his best chance to bust me and winning the pot put him in great shape to win (I think he did actually go on to win) and losing that pot still left him with 10k where a double-up and he's back at the chip average.So there you have it. I realize I could have bet 10-20k on the flop, hoping for a fold or call (but no raise) and went looking for a diamond or a king and eventually folded it. But what I mostly want to hear about from you guys is what do you think of the move that I actually DID make? Is it a move any of you would make? Was it just stupid? Was it a good plan that didn't go my way? etc etc

[looshle]

If you put him on JJ why didnt you check and let him try to bluffYou call his all in horrible, and give this advice?

[TJ_Eckleburg]

First of all... what a horrible situation. I spent 30 minutes thinking about what you could have done... and the honest answer is I can't come up with ANYthing.Obviously you have to play the kings, so you can't fold them. If you make just a pot sized bet preflop that only increases the likelihood that he'd call. Pretty much the only way you could have made him fold preflop (and this is in retrospect) was to push all-in, but that's still a terrible choice. You're only going to get called by a desperate shortstack or AA, and with the one guy that's got you covered behind you, that's a terrible idea. I like the idea of the overbet preflop. It tells the chipleader "I'm not trying to be a douche, I've got the goods and I'm coming after the shortstacks."On the flop... an overbet. I can't see myself doing anything other than what you did, especially if you had a read on him that he would have re-raised preflop with AA. The overbet out of position into him obviously says strength, and he can't call you with anything less than a set, a flush, or a red overpair, which he'd probably lay down unless it was AA. If you check the flop to him, there's no way he's letting free diamonds off, so you're all in on the flop no matter what you do. Even if you do check, he's going to put you in and I think you have to call.The good news... a couple of things went catastrophically wrong for this to happen to you, and you can take comfort in the fact that that won't always be the case. If anything, he made a weak call with TT preflop. If I'm the chip leader and the one stack I worry about fires out a huge overbet preflop, I don't wanna mess around with a mid pocket pair like that. I'd have folded QQ on down, just because letting you attack the shortstacks at the table adds to his equity much better than coming at you heads up with a difficult hand like TT.I think you played it the only way you could. I think you lost all your chips because of position and getting monstrously outdrawn on the flop. Don't forget, you were still drawing very very live after you were all in, and it was a bad play by him that paid off in the worst possible way. Keep your chin up, and don't think you made a mistake.

[TJ_Eckleburg]

XXEddie said:

hm......23k pot roughly.....you move in for 80k....thats a mistake, you shouldnt be scared of AA because you dont slowplay AA preflop especially when someone has raised you, If you put him on JJ why didnt you check and let him try to bluff also you really shouldnt of moved in because you were first, you have no read on him whatsoever, i hand like Ak :diamond:  or AQ :diamond:  or a set could also have youhorrible all in play

The bad guy couldn't have had AdKd because our guy had Kd. If he called with AdQd I think that's a HORRIBLE call at that point in the tournament compared to the stacks. I think the all-in was a good play, and the worst realistic scenario is he has a set, to which we have a very live re-draw to.Furthermore, if our guy got called by AdKx preflop, then the chipleader would HAVE to fold for the all-in.

[looshle]

I agree just an unfortunate situation to be in. Anyone who tells you it's easy to get away from the hand is just trying to make them look better than you, or has the name of XXXEddie or JFarrell20. Tough break, don't get too down on yourself because you were obviously playing well enough to get that far being 2nd in chips.

[KDawgCometh]

I have to say, it was extremely ballsy of you to do that. It was even more balsy for him to do that against you at that stage of the tourny with top set on an all diamond flop. He did have outs to boat up if you had a flush, but why take that chance if I'm him. I think you could've maybe bet out to make it look like a trap and if he riases you then push in. I think your play sort of says that you have a diamond, but not both. just some food for thought

[TJ_Eckleburg]

Bottom line is... I think the other guy made a very weak call pre-flop, and I can think of no betting situation that doesn't put you all-in on the flop or turn, and you end up with the same thing. I think the way you played it would have gotten hands you were worried about (AdKx, red queens) out of the hand or paying to be behind at you. I just think you got majorly railed by the poker gods.Maybe pushing pre-flop would have been okay after all. However, you'd likely have gotten no action for it, and I think an overbet raise would be far more profitable in the long run.

[TJ_Eckleburg]

The preflop raise was absolutely fine. For one thing, it *SHOULD* have told the monster stack to fold marginal holdings. For another, it immediately puts the pressure on the short or average stacks in the blinds. I realize it's not immediately profitable to just steal blinds with KK, but with that skewed a chip distribution, it would do more good to keep other average stacks from being able to defend their blinds. The only thing wrong with overbetting the best hand is it decreases the likelihood that you'll get called, which is a cash game mentality. However, in this tournament situation, strangling the stacks in the blinds still would have been a favorable result.Because the guy behind you was the only guy that had you covered, I think the only real play you can advocate here is the overbet preflop raise. Remember, this still got us heads up against TT with KK. THAT is definitely a favorable long-run situation.

[akishore]

to the OP:you played it fine pre-flop, don't listen to anyone who says your pre-flop raise was bad. it's completely fine to make big raises if you have specific motives, as you did.for example, in one blog entry, daniel describes a hand in which johnny chan has position on him, he picks up some big hand, and way overraises the blind since 1. he doesn't want too much action, and 2. he doesn't want johnny chan to call since he respects his post-flop play a lot. unfortunately, a similar thing happened to him as to you, johnny called and took down a monster pot with a set of 8's. that's just tournament poker.the only thing i can think of critiquing would be all-in on the flop. this is never a great play since you'll only get called when you're beat, and if you're ahead, you won't get paid off. while it's true that on this hand, you would have probably lost it all anyway, forget the results and think about making the correct play based on what your opponent might have:1. QQ/JJ/99/etc., you want him to stay in. you're wayy ahead of him, he's looking for two outs max. all-in makes him fold. maybe a 15k bet or 20k bet?2. TT/77/44, you have a redraw to a higher set or a flush, for a total of 11 outs. that puts you at roughly 40%, it's a race. it's not a good idea to race for all of your chips at this point, so you don't want to go all-in and be called. bet, and if they push, you'll be forced to call, but you're hoping to see a turn card without pushing in.3. AK/AQ, with the A of diamonds, they have 8 outs and are roughly 30% to win it. make them pay to draw, and if they push on a steal attempt, you're forced to call. however, you want to deny them odds, so a pot-sized bet is good again, maybe 20kish. you ruled out this possibility, however, which is fine (though i can't see the chipleader folding AK, but if your read is right, go with it).4. AQ of diamonds, you don't want to push all-in since you're way behind. again, it'll be inevitable that most likely you'll lose your chips eventually, but you ruled out this possibility and rightly so.so if i were in your shoes, i'd probably make a pot-sized bet of around 15k - 20k. this way, i get paid off if i'm ahead, and i don't necessarily have to race if i'm not (if i get reraised all-in, you're forced to call, but sometimes your opponent will only call in hopes of trapping and you'll get a free shot at a K or diamond).this is just one of those unlucky hands. it really sucks to be out of position on the one stack that can beat you. sorry to hear, and good luck next time.aseem

[Erudis]

Very nice discussion! I'm new to these forums (obvious by the post count) and I'm impressed... very nice!As to the preflop 10xBB raise I think (as most of you guys did) that that's a good play (I should emphasize, a good TOURNEY play). What I'm hoping for is to keep the chip leader off of this particular pot and get a short stack to push in with Ax or under pair. The only preflop all-in I'm not willing to call would be the chip-leader's (and I'm willing to lose the 10k to him). If it turns out I pick up only the blinds and antes (2500 chips) i'm perfectly okay with that as that alone is 1/8 of the chip average. The chip-leader usually is not going to want to tangle with me here because of the overbet as it's advantageous to him for me to go after one of the other stacks at the table and he still has position on me.After reading all the posts I'd have to say akishore has given the best reasons not to pre-emptively move all in on the flop. However, I'm really not sure what the best alternative play would be.akishore recommends about a pot-sized bet and that seems like a decent play. if he moves all in i know he has a set and I'm willing to fold, if he calls with JJ or QQ i get value (and information about his hand). if he makes a raise from 20k to 40k i probably have the right circumstance to call and try to hit. if i end up folding at the turn i'm still 2x chip avg and in 3rd place.Is there a better move here? What about checking? Hard to say what the chip leader would do flopping top set on a suited flop, maybe he'd bet 10k to feel me out... maybe he'd go all in to protect (though I think that's a poor play in his position) and I could lay down without having lost anything more than my preflop raise (oddly enough in many situations where I'd be wiling to bet all-in I'd be quite unwilling to call an all-in). Maybe he bets pot which is what I was going to bet anyway.Last question about the matter: What if it were Danny Nag, Phil Ivey, John Juanda, etc, sitting to my left? In that case would it make the all-in play a better play because:1. Any of these guys could easily steal the pot from me with the worst hand here2. I might not get a better situation than 3 to 2 dog to cripple them.Oh the complexities of tournament play! That's why we play em for the challenge and play the cash games for the cash!

[Erudis]

akishore said:

2. TT/77/44, you have a redraw to a higher set or a flush, for a total of 11 outs. that puts you at roughly 40%, it's a race. it's not a good idea to race for all of your chips at this point, so you don't want to go all-in and be called. bet, and if they push, you'll be forced to call, but you're hoping to see a turn card without pushing in.

You're right about not wanting a race situation and so you'd have to say I'm not force to call if he pushes, in fact, I'm compelled to fold.

akishore said:

(though i can't see the chipleader folding AK, but if your read is right, go with it).

This is off the topic, but I think calling with AK preflop would be a worse play for him than calling with TT. Suppose I'm him, here's what I'd be thinking:1. I have position on him2. Best case scenario I'm 50/50 with the only guy who can damage me. more likely I'm against aces or kings, in which case, an ace or a king would hurt me bad if either flops or even if both an A and K flop. calling here I'd really be looking to flop a straight or a flush if I'm suited - but for 10k?3. It's to my advantage to have him pick off a short-stack or two and the chips he'd win would still be on my right.4. It's to my advantage if one of the short-stacks beat him giving me a larger lead.I remember an early final-table hand between Antonio Esfandiari and the Devilfish (Dave Ulliot) in a WPT event last year (i think it was the same one where Gus Hansen called a preflop all in with 10 8s and busted Antonio). Antonio had KK preflop to Devilfish's right. Devilfish had AK. Antonio raised big (it might have been a big reraise over an earlier raiser), Devilfish pushed all in with AK, everyone else folded and Antonio called him. the Kings held and busted Devilfish. I remember thinking at the time that I thought it was a terrible way to play AK in that spot if he had any read whatsoever of Antonio. Personally, I probably fold it if I give Antonio credit for any pocket pair, there's much better situations to be in than that. But then again, I've never been a big fan of preflop all-ins unless you're a short stack or you know you're overmatched by the players at the table. Anyways...

[rollito]

i think you overbet preflop....any raise like that utg represents aces or kings and no small stack is gonna get involved wtih all their chips withough aces.....i like his call preflop because he had chips to burn and it only cost him 10k to flop a set and try and bust your bigger pair...basically it cost him 10k to take a stangle hold on the tourney by busting the second biggest stack.........you were commiting at least a huge portion of your stack while he was only risking 10k since he can prob fold if he doesn't hit a set even if the flop comes all unders.....a big raise pre flop isn't wrong just not to 10 k maybe 5k or so then the big stack with pocket 10s prob comes over the top thinking he's good and you go reraise all your chips and force him to lay down the pocket 10s or call in a horrible spot.....tough to get away from since you held such a big hand with redraws even if he hit that set since he prob didnt hold the Ad.....but this presents another problem.......maybe he made a loose call with ak off or even aq which was a mistake but why get involved in this big a pot with the only person in the tourney that can bust you.......tough hand and you might go broke many ways but i think the biggest mistake you made was the huge preflop raise since your idea was to isolate a short stack but made them have to basically call off all thier chips instead of come over the top to force you to what they think is a decision

[bobbytheo3]

I have thought about this hand and think you played it decently, but ran into a little bad luck. Your preflop raise seems a bit excessive, but you got called by a weaker hand, which was optimal. The post flop all-in was also excessive. like someone else suggested, a pot size bet would have probably been more realistic, and if he would have gone all-in over the top of you, you may have been able to get off the hand. As far as the suggestion that you dont want to tangle with the chip leader, that is an over-rated idea. the actual proper idea is that you dont want to get involved with the chip leader in marginal situations. in this situation however, you got him to call your huge bet as a big underdog pre-flop, and after the flop you still had to figure you were ahead in the hand. if he had pocket J's or Q's, he may have called your all- in and allowed you to double up and cruise into the final table with a monstrous stack of chips. and even if he folded, you still put a dent in his stack and would have been chip leader. with pocket kings pre-flop, you wanna tangle with anyone, big stack or not

[J-Dub]

I think all-in on the flop was a mistake. That just screams to me, "This didn't hit me! Fold. Please!" I would have made a nice pot-sized, or slightly over, bet and see what he woulda done. If he moved all-in, it've been much harder to call and loose than giving him the option to call and knock you out (as did happen). That is a semi scary flop, even though he probably didn't call you with A -X, just because as you said, you put him on a semi-mid pair such as 10's or J's. Also, you say you know his style pretty well, so give him a chance to tell you what he has. Get a read first. Overall, it wasn't a terrible play, and you have good outs, you just didn't win the race. We've all been there, and are doomed to be there again. I love poker.