Bad Call Down W/ Top Pair?

[amarillotg 0]

villain is 30/7/.75 over 500 handsFull Tilt PokerLimit Holdem Ring game9 playersConverterPre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with :D 3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 calls.Flop: (8SB, 4 players)SB checks, BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls.do you call this down?

[Mattnxtc 0]

villain is 30/7/.75 over 500 handsFull Tilt PokerLimit Holdem Ring game9 playersConverterPre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with :D 3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 calls.Flop: (8SB, 4 players)SB checks, BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP2 3-bets, Hero calls.do you call this down?

why are you raising preflop

[Wingmaster05 0]

why are you raising preflop

folding the button and blinds would be fantastic, plus it's probably 3x easier to see where you are in the hand when you ahve the lead.

[Mattnxtc 0]

folding the button and blinds would be fantastic, plus it's probably 3x easier to see where you are in the hand when you ahve the lead.

two callers and i have a crappy hand...i am not all that excited about this hand

[Wingmaster05 0]

two callers and i have a crappy hand...i am not all that excited about this hand

one crappy caller that we have position on and and solid stats suggesting he will not play back at us postflop w/o a hand, yea i would want to raise any playable hand here. QJ/QTs are probably borderline and my cutoff, but i think it's worth it.as for the hand amarillo, I'm not sure what line i like. I expect his hand range to be J8s+, 33/88. I don't expect J9 JT or possibly a weaker jack to three bet us on the flop unless you have been playing a bunch of wild hands at this table. Therefore I think you can safely fold the turn UI.

[hotbacon 0]

Don't raise preflop.

folding the button and blinds would be fantastic, plus it's probably 3x easier to see where you are in the hand when you ahve the lead.

That's also an argument for raising 22 here. Do you raise 22 here?All raising PF does is vastly reduce the potential for villains to make mistakes post flop.So it must be for equity then, right?QJo doesn't have enough equity vs this field.

[screech 0]

preflop raise sucks.reads help. barring none, I call down.

[cu in 4years Dan 1]

i dont see a problem with it at all

[amarillotg 0]

Don't raise preflop.All raising PF does is vastly reduce the potential for villains to make mistakes post flop.

so by this logic you limp with all hands and never raise right?

So it must be for equity then, right?QJo doesn't have enough equity vs this field.

QJo against a loose limper that has stats to prove he raises a decent amount of hands: equity (%) win (%) tie (%) Hand 1: 51.3873 % 45.20% 06.18% { QJo }Hand 2: 48.6127 % 42.43% 06.18% { 88, A9s-A2s, QTs+, JTs, KTo, QTo+, JTo }plus 3-betting gives a ton of fold equity on the flop and buys us the button like previously mentioned.screech, im very surprised you think this raise sucks. imo, raising a loose limper from lp with this hand is fairly standard.

[Actuary 3]

preflop raise sucks.

you're wrong.Playing QJ off in a 3-5 way pot sucks, especially w/o the "button".don't make me post more.

[Shimmering Wang 1]

you're wrong.Playing QJ off in a 3-5 way pot sucks, especially w/o the "button".don't make me post more.

YOU are wrong. Playing QJo in a 3-5 way pot DOES suck w/o the button.And raising does exactly nothing to remedy this situation. I'd rather play it for a single bet than raise it up with 3 left to act behind me, even if it means we could get 6 way action. But, even more, I'd rather fold it and move on to the next hand. Against a single limper I could raise it, but against 2? Dump. Next hand.Wang

[Actuary 3]

YOU are wrong. Playing QJo in a 3-5 way pot DOES suck w/o the button.And raising does exactly nothing to remedy this situation. I'd rather play it for a single bet than raise it up with 3 left to act behind me, even if it means we could get 6 way action. But, even more, I'd rather fold it and move on to the next hand. Against a single limper I could raise it, but against 2? Dump. Next hand.Wang

There is only one limper.Put the Crown down, Clown!

[Shimmering Wang 1]

There is only one limper.Put the Crown down, Clown!

Doobidy, doo! Still doesn't make the raise great, B. I'd much much rather chuck this hand than play it, but I suppose if you're playing it, might as well play it for a raise if the limper sucks. Unless I'm bored, I'm almost always chucking this. I limp sometimes, too, depending on the style for the Button and the BBWang

[Actuary 3]

honestly, I don't think Raise Sucks, nor Fold Sucks, nor Call Sucks.Kinda, blah..whatever, about all three.I was just roughing up Screech... because I don't think Raise sucks.cool.IMO: Raise against this loose playerFolding is no fun!

[screech 0]

you're wrong.Playing QJ off in a 3-5 way pot sucks, especially w/o the "button".don't make me post more.

Trying to isolate with Q high agianst a player that will show down ace high is bad. Especially when you got 3 more players to act behind you.

[Actuary 3]

Trying to isolate with Q high agianst a player that will show down ace high is bad. Especially when you got 3 more players to act behind you.

he'll show down Ace high?We'll bet down with < Ace High?I dispute both those.SSHE likes a raise FWIW

[hotbacon 0]

****.I thought there were 2 limpers, lol.It's much closer then.Still a limp without knowing the blinds are super tight I think.

[liveactiononly 0]

i dont see a problem with it at all

I just think first of all you raised with a less than premium, well its not horrible but it really isnt a raising hand unless in certain situations....this not being one of them. The problem with raising with Q J is that you are likely to get called by a hand that not only is ahead but in a dominating position. This fact become even more prevelent when multiple callers are present. Basically you have set your self up in a situation where you are raising with what you think might be the best hand, when in reality you will often find yourself up against a dominated hand. Play hands like these carefully, or if you have good reads on your opponents.Regardless of this, once you were three bet on the flop you have called the 3rd bet if you think your queen is live because of what the pot is laying you and if you miss you fold to a bet.

[checkymcfold 0]

raise, call, or fold pf are all ok. i lean raise, because i like people to think i'm a donk.after that, i think i call turn and fold river UI (board pair and ace kicker for 2p is improvement), judging by what you have said about the villain. i think. it's really close, depending on reads, and i'm not talking about pokertracker stats. what hands does he 3-bet flops with? there are no draws here. i can't imagine he's 3-betting something that you beat here.

[amarillotg 0]

for people that say folding here is an option, when would you play QJo? there is a an open limp from a loose player in mp and it folds to you in the CO. what more can you ask for with this hand.im done with the pre-flop analysis, i can see an argument for calling but imo raising here is money.

after that, i think i call turn and fold river UI (board pair and ace kicker for 2p is improvement), judging by what you have said about the villain. i think. it's really close, depending on reads, and i'm not talking about pokertracker stats. what hands does he 3-bet flops with? there are no draws here. i can't imagine he's 3-betting something that you beat here.

this is what i was originally asking. i found him open-limping pre-flop from mp to be pretty weak since he's obviously not shy about raising. i pretty much put him on a range of small to medium pairs or weak marginal hands like QT, JT and what not.with that range and his passiveness post-flop i really only think he's 3-betting a set here. he's loose, but not an idiot so i think we can rule out a ragged 2 pair.i don't agree with folding the river UI. by the time we get to the river we have to show down this hand for one more bet.my real question is, is it better to fold to a 3-bet on the flop?

[Actuary 3]

you have to be good about 1/18 times to call down.Yuo split sometimes, and you are drawing dead sometimes.You'll hit your kicker 12%I'd say you can fold to the 3 bet..given the passive post flop read and that board.But it's too close for me to raise/fold the flop

[wrto4556 0]

preflop raise isnt bad. I dont feel like going to go look at who the button, SB, and BB are...but they should be what makes this a raise or not. More likely to ISO more likely to raise.Why is everyone thinking about folding TP on the flop to this guy? I thought about capping before folding... :blush:EDIT: VIllian will call down too much with UI pocket pairs, imo. THe raise is close but im on the limper's side.

[Actuary 3]

Why is everyone thinking about folding TP on the flop to this guy? I thought about capping before folding...

First of all..how the hell are you?and thirdly, for the same reason you think a limp is better (because he'll call down with UI pp), he won't 3-bet the flop with someithng TP crummy kicker beats. And not to many two pair hands hit that board with a 30% vpip, even.in real life, I'm sure I call down.I can't imagine it +EV.

[screech 0]

SSHE likes a raise FWIW

Really? What page?Isolating loose players with weak no showdownable hands is not winning poker. Especially without a read that the players behind you are tight.Anyway, so let's say you get lucky and isolate this guy. Flop comes T53. You bet, he of course calls. Turn is a 2. What now? Let's say you bet and are called again. River is an 8. You betting again?

[wrto4556 0]

First of all..how the hell are you?and thirdly, for the same reason you think a limp is better (because he'll call down with UI pp), he won't 3-bet the flop with someithng TP crummy kicker beats. And not to many two pair hands hit that board with a 30% vpip, even.in real life, I'm sure I call down.I can't imagine it +EV.

Im ok, i guess. Poker has taken its toll on me sinse january but thats a long story.I see what you're saying about hand range. He doesnt raise a lot preflop. I think he could have KJ-J8, or maybe even 88. Not much that we beat. Folding to anyone like this online has to be a mistake though. I take high card to showdown often against donkeys like this online.