15 replies to this topic

[FARGOpokerND]

i am playin a PLO tourney right now....it was early and a player wa all in in a 3-way pot. flop of Kd-Jd-4c one of the 2 remainin players went all in....the other person goes into a FIT "why wont u check him out!!??"...and he foldednewayz...the 2nd all-in guy had K-K-x-x the 1st all in guy had 10-9-x-x and rivered a Q to triple up the 3rd guy had A-T-x-x and was fumingmy question is.....WHEN is it considered right or wrong to check down?i've always believed it to be proper when someone is all in close to bubble or at the final table and neither of the other 2 players has any considerably good hand...to check it downin this case i thought the player with the KK was right to try and push the other guy out with his nuts at the time....THOUGHTS??

[....Ian....]

if this was like final table or bubble ...i dont know.otherwise..the KK has current nuts and has every right to push/pot

[mtdesmoines]

FARGOpokerND, on Wednesday, May 10th, 2006, 11:27 AM, said:

i am playin a PLO tourney right now....it was early and a player wa all in in a 3-way pot. flop of Kd-Jd-4c one of the 2 remainin players went all in....the other person goes into a FIT "why wont u check him out!!??"...and he foldednewayz...the 2nd all-in guy had K-K-x-x the 1st all in guy had 10-9-x-x and rivered a Q to triple up the 3rd guy had A-T-x-x and was fumingmy question is.....WHEN is it considered right or wrong to check down?i've always believed it to be proper when someone is all in close to bubble and neither of the other 2 players has any considerably good hand...in this case i thought the player with the KK was right to try and push the other guy out with his nuts at the time....THOUGHTS??

No matter what you do, you'll be wrong every time. Was at the bubble of a tourney the other day -- I had top two pair and a dude pushes me all in -- in a similar three-way pot. I'm thinking he could have a set, there's a possible flush and a straight on the board. And I want to cash, so I fold. Pusher flips over TPTK; the all-in flips over bottom two pair. Thankfully, the idiot went all-in and got blindsided by runner runner two hands later and bubbled out. Chat filled with variations on the theme of "justice."---On this same theme, a while back, I had a nut broadway straight on the river in a cash game. I raised the pot amount. Some dude re-raises me, so I put him all in. He calls, we chop our straights, both making a couple bucks from the blinds. Out of nowhere, he GOES OFF on me -- spewing a five minute invective starting off with "haven't you ever heard of the rake?" His argument seemed to center around the fact that he couldn't know I had the nuts unless he raised me and I called, and that I SHOULD have known HE had the nuts, because HE raised my strong bet. At the end of the day, I know I should have muted him, but I argued with him for 20 minutes until he busted out. (Naturally).

[Mercury69]

It's wrong to say something about it. If it just happens, that's one thing. Lobbying for it to happen is another. If a guy expects it to happen and it doesn't, that person is a big ****ing baby for crying about it.

[brisk]

mtdesmoines, on Wednesday, May 10th, 2006, 11:47 AM, said:

On this same theme, a while back, I had a nut broadway straight on the river in a cash game. I raised the pot amount. Some dude re-raises me, so I put him all in. He calls, we chop our straights, both making a couple bucks from the blinds. Out of nowhere, he GOES OFF on me -- spewing a five minute invective starting off with "haven't you ever heard of the rake?"

Chances are the rake was already capped after the big bet ... some ppl just like to complain.

[mtdesmoines]

brisk, on Wednesday, May 10th, 2006, 11:57 AM, said:

Chances are the rake was already capped after the big bet ... some ppl just like to complain.

Since it was a $200 + pot, yes.

[dapokerbum]

you know what I hate those people that say "oh why didn't you just check it down". Here is the answer I always give. I am here to make money not to make you happy. If I think that someone is too scared to make a call and I have a slightly less advantage then heck yes i'll try to push him out. I don't know about anyone else here but when I am at the table I am there for one reason and one reason only...To Make Money. I wouldn't ever think to check it down so some other idiot can possibly catch up to me.my $.02

[rog]

dapokerbum, on Wednesday, May 10th, 2006, 4:42 PM, said:

you know what I hate those people that say "oh why didn't you just check it down". Here is the answer I always give. I am here to make money not to make you happy. If I think that someone is too scared to make a call and I have a slightly less advantage then heck yes i'll try to push him out. I don't know about anyone else here but when I am at the table I am there for one reason and one reason only...To Make Money. I wouldn't ever think to check it down so some other idiot can possibly catch up to me.

Yes, we're all here to make money, but you do realize that in tournament play (which we're talking about), there are many situations where eliminating a player makes you money right? Improving your chances at this pot can be a shortsighted move when eliminating the all-in player moves you up the pay scale.

[psujohn]

rog, on Thursday, May 11th, 2006, 12:50 PM, said:

Yes, we're all here to make money, but you do realize that in tournament play (which we're talking about), there are many situations where eliminating a player makes you money right? Improving your chances at this pot can be a shortsighted move when eliminating the all-in player moves you up the pay scale.

They key is that it was early in the tourney so your tournament equity is pretty close to your chip equity. You make more by winning chips than you do by eliminating a player. Late in a tournament it's different.

[iggymcfly]

Checking it down to eliminate a player is highly overrated, even in tournament play. If you're in a SnG with four people left, three people cash, and neither one of you's the high stack, then yes, it might make sense to check it down. 99% of the time though, the +chip EV play is the +money EV play as well.In a MTT, the payouts are usually so top-heavy that "moving up a spot" is almost irrelevant. And if you're a big stack, remaining on the bubble is usually to your advantage as it allows you to accumulate more chips from the scared players. Satellite play's a different animal altogther, but in a regular tournament with an escalating prize scale, betting to maximize chip EV is almost always the right move.

[fleung22]

Checking down is not always +EV.Imagine you're in the lead with 77 and some other dude has KJ.A third person is already all-in and the flop is garbage like 2-5-8 rainbow.You could check it down because the probability is better that you or Mr. KJ will have a better hand than just one player.But if the all-in player doesn't make anything wouldn't you rather the pot came to you rather than Mr. KJ when he spikes his pair on the turn or river?I think there's a place for unspoken checking but it's such a common practice that it's become more of a mythical correctness rather than the right play.

[redandblack]

wheres jerry?

[thrillsoft]

I was watching the WPT Golden Nugget tourney last night and The Grinder raised the button with 8-7 off-suite. An Tran moves all in with K-T clubs from the SB with a short-stack. The Spanish guy (can't remember his name) insta-calls with AQ off-suite. I couldn't believe that he didn't move in himself to isolate. He gave The Grinder 3-1 to call the raise which he did. caught an 8 and won the 500K pot. Spanish guy could have gone from losing 170K to winning 360K on the hand. 500K chip swing for him when he only had about 800K. Would have made a world of difference for him. I was thinking at the time..."God I hope the Grinder cracks you! Donk!". I'm sure he was trying to keep Grinder in to eliminate An Tran, but geesh... what a bonehead move. It was clear that An Tran was ready to move with just about anything and figured KT was good against a button steal attempt (which he was right). That Spanish guy just played so passive it was unbelievable. How does he ever get to the FT???? Not the same as checking it down, which they did after the flop. But before the flop, what a horrible play. Even if An Tran had an under pair or even KK, by pushing The Grinder out, leaving his dead money in the pot. He would still have given himself pot odds for his AQ to crack a hand even as strong as KK. Against an under pair this is still a hugely profitable play to get almost 3-2 on a coinflip situation. There's just literally no hand that An Tran could have had that could have justified keeping The Grinder in the hand instead of going head's up.

[dapokerbum]

rog, on Thursday, May 11th, 2006, 4:50 AM, said:

Yes, we're all here to make money, but you do realize that in tournament play (which we're talking about), there are many situations where eliminating a player makes you money right? Improving your chances at this pot can be a shortsighted move when eliminating the all-in player moves you up the pay scale.

I don't understand you. What I am saying is exactly what Fleung said. And what you're saying is confusing. How can it be shortsighted if I think that I have a better hand than the all in but that it is marginal between myself and the other guy. I can tell you countless times in my home game where someone was all in for a smaller amount another guy called then I decided to go all in myself. Then the other guy thinks for a minute and folds reluctantly. On the river he is moaning to himself because it would have won him the pot but instead I rake in everything. Do you see why it is not smart to check down all the time.

[Smasharoo]

i am playin a PLO tourney right now....it was early and a player wa all in in a 3-way pot. flop of Kd-Jd-4c one of the 2 remainin players went all in....the other person goes into a FIT "why wont u check him out!!??"...and he foldedBecause in a PLO tournament it would be moronic not to bet out live players that are drawing to beat you when you have the nuts. If the all in guy's drawing live to beat you, the chance that someone else is also drawing live to beat him and top set really ins't worth worrying about.I really don't see the problem here. If the guy had randomly bet 9 high into a three way pot with one all in it'd be a diffrent story.good luck.

[FARGOpokerND]

iggymcfly, on Thursday, May 11th, 2006, 12:52 PM, said:

Checking it down to eliminate a player is highly overrated, even in tournament play. If you're in a SnG with four people left, three people cash, and neither one of you's the high stack, then yes, it might make sense to check it down. 99% of the time though, the +chip EV play is the +money EV play as well.In a MTT, the payouts are usually so top-heavy that "moving up a spot" is almost irrelevant. And if you're a big stack, remaining on the bubble is usually to your advantage as it allows you to accumulate more chips from the scared players. Satellite play's a different animal altogther, but in a regular tournament with an escalating prize scale, betting to maximize chip EV is almost always the right move.

Spoken like a true WSOP HORSE Champion!